Trying to understand how 'dry orgasm' occurs with Aneros

Imo you’ve already worked it out lol. 
I think ejaculation is driven at speed. Dry o is coaxed,as we learn to slow down.

Posted by: @helghast

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Imo you’ve already worked it out lol. 
I think ejaculation is driven at speed. Dry o is coaxed,as we learn to slow down.

Thank you for the vote of confidence friend. 
I've been piecing the parts together via different studies online. 

Hey @the_bishop,

good list. I'd like to add a few things that might help to tie a few loose ends.

• Most men never learn to orgasm but only to ejaculate. Spinal cord orgasms are part of a reflex chain. The orgasm itself is a reflex to ejaculation. So men get the orgasm "for free" as a "byproduct" of ejaculation.
• Ejaculation is a reflex to a certain set of stimuli  (as you said correctly).
• Learning to orgasm is actually hard, men just never have to deal with that due to this nifty shortcut. In women that struggle shows more clearly, since the lack the shortcut via the ejacualtion reflex.
• You can brute force the ejaculation reflex. Think zoo animals which get their semen "milked" with electrodes up the butt. (Yes that's a thing.)
• The most trigger-ish part of the penis is around the frenulum, where the glans connects with the foreskin. That's why circumcised men sometimes have problems with reaching orgasm: their most important reflex-zone got damaged by circumcision. It's not so much the missing foreskin (hence exposed and desensitize glans) that causes issues, but the scarred nerve cluster at the frenulum.
• Yes, the spinal chord reflex reacts to fast stimuli. That's why men intuitively want to fuck hard and fast. And also why vibrators work so well for most women. 
• I believe that all nerves in our bodies have the orgasmic response ingrained. So what the body does to orgasm, is to measure if a certain threshold of nerves is met, which fire at the same time. That's why genitals work so well to achieve orgasms. There is just a lot of them getting stimulated at the same time. That's what our brain picks up. So any reasonable big nerval cluster in our body is well suited to get stimulated and trigger an orgasmic response. All that's necessary is enough nerves oscillating at the same time. That's what makes the anus and prostate good choices for that approach.
• Tantrists indicated a few of those nerval clusters / plexi and called them Chakras. Tantrists say chakras a basins for Chi (life force). They say, Chi can be moved and directed around the body. I say: moving Chi is "just" nerval excitement - a sensory response triggered by meditation. And it "collects" in Chakras, because these are in fact just a shitton of nerves, making the sensory response easier to feel and build up.
• Full body super orgasms happen, when the practitioner manages to get the whole nervous system excited and in sync. Traditional orgasms are rather located in our genitals. Full body orgasms are essentially the same thing, but not only with your genital nerval cluster oscillating, but your whole nervous system.
• Like ejaculation, orgasm is generally a reflex. So even if it's not triggered by ejaculation, it's triggered if certain thresholds are met. The most obvious being nerval oscillation escalating in a feedback loop. But muscle tension and breathing to their part too (as mentioned earlier). The later the orgasm is triggered, the higher the pent-up nerval excitement can be, resulting in bigger orgasms. That's one of the pros of the "do nothing" approach. It cuts out heavy breathing and muscle tension (at least at first), helping to build up more nerval arousal before the orgasmic switch is tripped.
• One of my all-time favourite slogans brings that point home very nicely: adrenaline ≠ ecstasy

Cheers Unfug

@the_bishop @unfug 

Great analysis/compilation!

Posted by: @unfug

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Hey @the_bishop,

 

good list. I'd like to add a few things that might help to tie a few loose ends.

 

• Most men never learn to orgasm but only to ejaculate. Spinal cord orgasms are part of a reflex chain. The orgasm itself is a reflex to ejaculation. So men get the orgasm "for free" as a "byproduct" of ejaculation.
• Ejaculation is a reflex to a certain set of stimuli  (as you said correctly).
• Learning to orgasm is actually hard, men just never have to deal with that due to this nifty shortcut. In women that struggle shows more clearly, since the lack the shortcut via the ejacualtion reflex.
• You can brute force the ejaculation reflex. Think zoo animals which get their semen "milked" with electrodes up the butt. (Yes that's a thing.)
• The most trigger-ish part of the penis is around the frenulum, where the glans connects with the foreskin. That's why circumcised men sometimes have problems with reaching orgasm: their most important reflex-zone got damaged by circumcision. It's not so much the missing foreskin (hence exposed and desensitize glans) that causes issues, but the scarred nerve cluster at the frenulum.
• Yes, the spinal chord reflex reacts to fast stimuli. That's why men intuitively want to fuck hard and fast. And also why vibrators work so well for most women. 
• I believe that all nerves in our bodies have the orgasmic response ingrained. So what the body does to orgasm, is to measure if a certain threshold of nerves is met, which fire at the same time. That's why genitals work so well to achieve orgasms. There is just a lot of them getting stimulated at the same time. That's what our brain picks up. So any reasonable big nerval cluster in our body is well suited to get stimulated and trigger an orgasmic response. All that's necessary is enough nerves oscillating at the same time. That's what makes the anus and prostate good choices for that approach.
• Tantrists indicated a few of those nerval clusters / plexi and called them Chakras. Tantrists say chakras a basins for Chi (life force). They say, Chi can be moved and directed around the body. I say: moving Chi is "just" nerval excitement - a sensory response triggered by meditation. And it "collects" in Chakras, because these are in fact just a shitton of nerves, making the sensory response easier to feel and build up.
• Full body super orgasms happen, when the practitioner manages to get the whole nervous system excited and in sync. Traditional orgasms are rather located in our genitals. Full body orgasms are essentially the same thing, but not only with your genital nerval cluster oscillating, but your whole nervous system.
• Like ejaculation, orgasm is generally a reflex. So even if it's not triggered by ejaculation, it's triggered if certain thresholds are met. The most obvious being nerval oscillation escalating in a feedback loop. But muscle tension and breathing to their part too (as mentioned earlier). The later the orgasm is triggered, the higher the pent-up nerval excitement can be, resulting in bigger orgasms. That's one of the pros of the "do nothing" approach. It cuts out heavy breathing and muscle tension (at least at first), helping to build up more nerval arousal before the orgasmic switch is tripped.
• One of my all-time favourite slogans brings that point home very nicely: adrenaline ≠ ecstasy

 

Cheers Unfug

Thank you for your additions @unfug!
I was hoping others would "fill in gaps" and you did that!! Excellent!!! Bravo!! 
I welcome more additions from others! Please!!

@zaqpol Thank you for your encouraging words!

@the_bishop 

Very interesting topic. 

You probably know by now how passionate/obsessed I am about the whole S-O thing, yet I stopped trying to understand the mechanisms beyond the simplest things, at least in the physical sense, because I ran into too many exceptions.  Mental elements are just so large in scale that most of my focus is on this now. So, my understanding of things is probably a bit outside of what science says and more based on impressions. I hope there is something you can use anyway.

One thing that makes sense to me is that we are clearly bypassing something, and that massaging the prostate either with an Aneros device, with our own muscles, or with the mind, does it. The refractory period must be tied in some way with ejaculation and penis stimulation, I don't know what the "ratio" is here. I say this because sometimes, it's possible to get a partial ejaculation without triggering the refractory period, and I feel this happens with little prostate action and a relaxed pelvic floor and muscles that do not act on it strongly. In that way it's almost like a dry-O, as you can chain them together, but the penis is involved right to the point of no return. 

But you can have strong prostate action with a device and unless the penis is involved, ejaculation will seldom happen. So I think I agree with your theory here. Some elements are mandatory, some optional, and some can overpower all the others. @unfug pointed out electro stimulation of zoo animals, this is also done to trigger ejaculations for men with spinal cord injuries so they can have kids. From what I understand, the element of pleasure is completely absent, but I'm not knowledgeable on this. 

My best understanding of the Super-O is that normally you have a single orgasm event, squirt of pleasure chemicals, then refractory period. Without the refractory period, these pleasure chemical stack, again and again with each O, until the effects cannot be contained strictly in the genitals, and you get that full body high. There might be a phenomenon where the "confused" body tries to ejaculate by sending stronger and stronger signals, but without penis stimulation, it just won't happen. So a dry O would really have very strong ties with avoiding penis stimulation. To me, there is a distinct element of "tricking the body" involved here, but I don't think it's unnatural or something that was "not supposed to happen". This also shows how several Mini-Os or dry-Os can become a Super-O, here strength is not important, amount of total dopamine is what matters. 

I also think that ancient human's ejaculatory Os were probably much stronger and closer to Super-Os than what we get today, but that's a different subject. I'm only saying this because this would be from psychological reasons and not from anatomical reasons or difference in the nervous system. Sorry for derailing a bit here... I could see men having several dry-os before the final wet-O from intercourse, without having to do anything "special" or involving direct prostate stimulation outside of what muscles and pelvic floor would do by themselves. 

Posted by: @unfug

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• Most men never learn to orgasm but only to ejaculate. Spinal cord orgasms are part of a reflex chain. The orgasm itself is a reflex to ejaculation. So men get the orgasm "for free" as a "byproduct" of ejaculation.

I don't agree with this statement, First, I don't believe that orgasm is a learned response but rather an innate, instinctive biological response that can be triggered by a variety of stimuli as @Zentai alluded to in his posted response. Second, I think it is really a reversed situation wherein the orgasm occurs first and then may be followed by the ejaculatory reflex when appropriate stimulation is applied. This occurs mostly through penile stimulation though other erotic stimulation can trigger this response as well, this is a learned behavior. However, I agree with most of the other ideas in the list. I also agree with @zentai 's additional notations.

Good Vibes to You!

LOVE this discussion! How do you all think the ruined orgasm fits in with this subject? I have dabbled in ruined orgasms a few times and they are a trip. 

Posted by: @zentai

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There might be a phenomenon where the "confused" body tries to ejaculate by sending stronger and stronger signals, but without penis stimulation, it just won't happen.

In either case, wet or dry, I believe, the prostate convulses and repeatedly contracts.  My only proof is, at least some of the time in dry orgasm, I feel that.  "Dry heaves" approximate dry orgasm in terms of trying to get something out?  I say that in jest yet not desecrate what can seem spiritual, but maybe there's some truth at the bodily nuts and bolts level in that crude analogy.

Aneros or Aless are pushing on glands, increasing the gauge pressure at the nerves, which is "artificial" as compared to when fluid-buildup occurs in the run-up to ejaculation.  I theorize (and borrow from the book The Open Orgasm, posted/hosted in another thread, honestly) both mechanisms propel arousal along to a local maximum; maxima in the case of dry orgasm.

Posted by: @reddog152

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How do you all think the ruined orgasm fits in with this subject? I have dabbled in ruined orgasms a few times and they are a trip. 

Ah yes, ruined orgasms are an interesting phenomenon, no ejaculatory contractions yet your semen just flows out leaving you still aroused and maybe not able to continue into a traditional ejaculation despite continued stimulation. A similar effect is created as a result of "prostate milking". In both situations the ejaculatory reflex has not been triggered and the hormonal cascade of prolactin is not initiated. It is that hormonal cascade which triggers the feeling of satiation and the refractory period so you are now left still aroused but unable to trigger the ejaculatory reflex because the fluid pressure in the prostate and seminal vesicles has been reduced. It is perplexing and frustrating, a real mind fuck.

Good Vibes to You!

Great topic and discussion.  I can only speak on my experience. Feel free to dissect it in any way you see fit. Thanks in part to this thread  I now have a better understanding of what going on inside me. I'm not much of a wordsmith so bare with me.  I have multiple types of dry orgasms. Took a while to understand I was having an orgasm. One doesn't really think in terms of , what would a n orgasm be without contractions or expultion. Just feelings, in different intensities, This type starts at high intensity and rises very little. Then theres slow contractive, starts at my sphincter takes 2sec for it to rise to my pc 2se to base of dick, and now sigmoid area, takes roughly 6-8sec for one full contraction, it may pause and play at my pc and bounce from side to side, who new you could have a left or right side pc orgasm., This type can last for minutes on end. Then occasionally I'll have a dry orgasm that totally mimic a TO except for the intense nerve feeling, extremely fast comtractions. All of these transition into a body thing. Where all of the weird wonderful stuff happens from time to time. Lastest weird thing, I had a kind of muscle spasm for lack of a better way to put it, which when tweaked felt like someone was pounding my bed about a foot to my left side, which would cause a vibration which would work its way from my ribs to a small quake in my prostate, which I can only catagorize as an orgasm. I also have the ones where my body takes over completely and does its own sexy dance, its like an erotic, erotic body orgasm which engages everything. Not at all focused in the groin.I could write more but that covers alot of it. Also I'm pretty turned on now just thinkin of all this stuff.

Posted by: @rumel

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Posted by: @reddog152

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How do you all think the ruined orgasm fits in with this subject? I have dabbled in ruined orgasms a few times and they are a trip. 

Ah yes, ruined orgasms are an interesting phenomenon, no ejaculatory contractions yet your semen just flows out leaving you still aroused and maybe not able to continue into a traditional ejaculation despite continued stimulation. A similar effect is created as a result of "prostate milking". In both situations the ejaculatory reflex has not been triggered and the hormonal cascade of prolactin is not initiated. It is that hormonal cascade which triggers the feeling of satiation and the refractory period so you are now left still aroused but unable to trigger the ejaculatory reflex because the fluid pressure in the prostate and seminal vesicles has been reduced. It is perplexing and frustrating, a real mind fuck.

Good Vibes to You!

The few times that I've messed around with ruined orgasms I was able to go through 3 cycles of semen release and then finish with a full traditional. Ended up with some incredible volume of cum all over me. They are indeed a mind fuck!

Posted by: @zentai

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One thing that makes sense to me is that we are clearly bypassing something

Yes, a “hotwiring” of the nerves seems to be occurring.

Posted by: @rumel

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It is perplexing and frustrating, a real mind fuck.

All dressed up and nowhere to go.  Become nonplussed in a genital way.  No expert here- maybe I’ll look it up and try.

Posted by: @tbob

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Took a while to understand I was having an orgasm. One doesn't really think in terms of , what would a n orgasm be without contractions or expultion. Just feelings, in different intensities,

Perhaps unintended, this is great advice for a newbie trying to wrap his head around it.  Yet it is not fully apparent until experienced himself, but, it’s the best we can do for him.  Once experienced, it becomes self-evident, like you knew it all along.  Yes @rumel, an innate ability.

It explained what the neophyte should aim for: the feeling of, feelings.  Not the aim of “orgasm”- whatever that is ; )  An emergent pattern.  Even the term orgasm gets muddled after experiencing this.  Feel the feelings until they detonate.

Posted by: @tbob

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, it may pause and play at my pc and bounce from side to side, who new you could have a left or right side pc orgasm.

Thanks for describing, interesting thing to try.

I suspect arousal+penile stimulation=ejaculation. The powerful flex’s of the reflex massage the prostate and you have an orgasm. With a dry o,arousal + ‘manual manipulation’ of the prostate= you have an orgasm. I think because it’s stimulation coming from a differing direction,we bypass the reflex trigger. Tip toeing past that sleeping giant as it were. Having said that,one cam train themselves to HFWO.

No,penis orgasm isn’t learned. It was put in place by nature along with arousal,sex drive and attraction to make sure we reproduce. We tinker and experiment with the wiring to repurpose things into something new. We can do this because males and females are very similar as humanoids. Our differences outside of sex organs are pretty much down to hormone profiles. Glans,clit,prostate,skenes gland (closest thing a woman has to a prostate) so we’ll say they have a g spot in place of a prostate. Chest vs breasts,test vs oestrogen. We learn to use the equipments manually that women use automatically. 

I don’t know,I just love cumming. I don’t really mind how or why.

Posted by: @helghast

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I suspect arousal+penile stimulation=ejaculation. The powerful flex’s of the reflex massage the prostate and you have an orgasm.

I’m trying to reach for a “grand unified theory” for male orgasm, whether dry or wet.  Something else that wet has in common with dry.  Consider the back end of the erect penis transmitting vibration and “ramming pulses” to the prostate!

Posted by: @helghast

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The powerful flex’s of the reflex massage the prostate and you have an orgasm.

Agreed

Posted by: @helghast

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I don’t know,I just love cumming. I don’t really mind how or why.

Nothing wrong with cumming one’s tits off, I think that’s your phrase- borrowing it here ; )

There's a book How to Make Love All Night: and Drive a Woman Wild by Barbara Keeling, PhD that I read in the mid 90s when it was first published. The book is about becoming multi orgasmic in sex with a partner (a how-to). I did the exercises, and my girlfriend who I'm still with was onboard. I was only able to get part way there, and because of life, I ended up dropping this trial, and we went back to conventional sex. I'm rereading the book now and I'm not through it yet. I do remember there was a section on how to separate and orgasm/ejaculation. There might be a key in this book for our Super-O adventure with Aneros or without?

Posted by: @rumel

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I don't agree with this statement

I actually didn't expect that response. But I don't have to die on that hill anyway (your feedback is very much appreciated still). 🙂 I could have worded it a bit less... absolute maybe.

My main point is the following:

It's often said that ejaculation and orgasm can be separated and thus becoming multiorgasmic usually revolves around that idea. I say: that's a HUGE misconception. I believe that in the spinal chord orgasmic response, orgasm and ejaculation are inseparable. That's what I mean with "learning to orgasm". You can't learn to separate, since that's simply not possible. You can only learn to orgasm independently from the set track that is the genital / spinal chord reflex.

I came to this insight / believe when I worked on rewiring my penis. I learned that you can very much feel, if you are on track to an ejaculational orgasm. The inner sex organs (prostate & seminal vesicles) start to swell up and (in lack of a better word) burn. There is no way to take that track and not ejaculate. If you want to orgasm with your penis but not ejaculate, you'll have to slow down or stop stimulation and basically start over once the "burn" on your inner sex organs is gone. You can trigger energy orgasms with the penis though. But it's not like you do your normal thing and apply a trick to avoid ejaculation last moment. It's more of a hare vs. tortoise situation. While you slowly work you way up and spread the excitement from the penis all over your body, you have to monitor carefully, that "the hare", doesn't run away. That's most easily controlled over speed. We already established, that fast and hard is the way our orgasmic reflexes (the hare) like the most. Going slow and relaxed (the tortoise) is what we advise virtually every beginner new to this journey. So by going slow, you preclude the hare while slowly gaining ground with the tortoise. But it's a race still. If you don't pay attention the hare will win and you'll ejaculate. That's what makes having energy orgasms with the penis or simply MMOs during intercourse a rather delicate thing.

Posted by: @rumel

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I don't believe that orgasm is a learned response but rather an innate, instinctive biological response

You are right, but that doesn't mean that I'm wrong. So why not both? A lot of things that are innate still have to be learned for the very first time at some pont. Like, instincts point us in a certain direction, that we manage to do the things "nature intended" without advise. But it's usually still try and error in the beginning. Think eating, walking, potty training...

Posted by: @rumel

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Second, I think it is really a reversed situation wherein the orgasm occurs first and then may be followed by the ejaculatory reflex when appropriate stimulation is applied

Yeah, we have different views on that. 🙂 I'd say the ejaculation trigger comes first and it just feels the other way around because orgasm spreads faster than expulsion. So you see and feel the ejacualtion second, but it was triggered first still.

Take the ruined orgasm topic that came up. The idea is to tease & denial until orgasm / ejaculation is imminent. What happens then? You leak or expulse semen but only with a partial or even completely  absent orgasm. How would that be possible if the orgasm came first? If it was, it wouldn't be a ruined orgasm but a ruined ejaculation, hence dry-O!

Posted by: @helical

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In either case, wet or dry, I believe, the prostate convulses and repeatedly contracts.  My only proof is, at least some of the time in dry orgasm, I feel that.  "Dry heaves" approximate dry orgasm in terms of trying to get something out?  I say that in jest yet not desecrate what can seem spiritual, but maybe there's some truth at the bodily nuts and bolts level in that crude analogy.

Certainly true. I made the same observations. BUT, you can have pure nerval orgasm w/o any pelvic response as well. Especially when your practice shifts from breathing & clenching approaches to pure meditation. Amygdala clicking is a good example for that. Calm seas orgasms may be another, although it most likely means something (slightly) different for everybody. I don't now who came up with that label at first, but I figure the picture of calm seas emerged because these types of orgasm don't have a lot of convulsion and muscle action involved. They feel calm, because your body actually is calm (adrenaline ≠ ecstasy).

Posted by: @zentai

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The refractory period must be tied in some way with ejaculation and penis stimulation, I don't know what the "ratio" is here.

@rumel said it already: ejaculation triggers prolactin. That's a hormone that triggers lactation in women, hence the name. In men, it works like a sedative for horses.

Posted by: @zentai

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I also think that ancient human's ejaculatory Os were probably much stronger and closer to Super-Os than what we get today, but that's a different subject. I'm only saying this because this would be from psychological reasons and not from anatomical reasons or difference in the nervous system. Sorry for derailing a bit here... I could see men having several dry-os before the final wet-O from intercourse, without having to do anything "special" or involving direct prostate stimulation outside of what muscles and pelvic floor would do by themselves. 

That's a very interesting idea. I read the argument some while ago, that orgasm is more deeply rooted in our bodies than being human. Meaning it was part of our bodies before they evolved to be human bodies, before they evolved to be apes, or mammals, or reptiles for that matter. Our idea of what an orgasm is, is very closely tied to our human condition. But it's actually pretty specialized to fit our human "design". Take the human out of the equation and the concept of orgasm becomes wildly broad and imprecise (Ask yourself: how would orgasm feel for a slug?). Kind of exactly the stuff we discover and talk about here in the forum.

Sry for the wall of text everyone. It had to get out of my head in order for me to stay sane... 🙂

Posted by: @unfug

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My main point is the following:

I’d often viewed my experience and self-congratulated with “It's often said that ejaculation and orgasm can be separated”.  With your very interesting first paragraph, I question my view.

Lots in your post for me to think about.

@zaqpol

I read that book just before I started with the Aneros. I don't recommend it. I really don't. Like, I mean it. Imho, it's a dead end. There might be people succeeding with her approach, but my gut feeling is, that they do something right "by accident", that's not part of her actual regimen.

It caters to the very idea, that I doomed a misconception in my last post in this thread.

Posted by: @zentai

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Posted by: @zentai

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The refractory period must be tied in some way with ejaculation and penis stimulation, I don't know what the "ratio" is here.

 

 

@rumel said it already: ejaculation triggers prolactin. That's a hormone that triggers lactation in women, hence the name. In men, it works like a sedative for horses.

Even that part is still debated, like we can observe here : https://www.nature.com/articles/s42003-020-01570-4

Anyway, my statement was poorly worded. It's not very important whether prolactin does it, or another chemical. (It's still crazy to me that we want to colonize Mars and we don't even know how our dicks work...)  I'm wondering why it's possible to get a refractory period without an orgasm, or an orgasm without a refractory period when penile stimulation is involved: 

Penile stimulation past the point of no return into ejaculation triggers the refractory period 99% of the time. I feel males will agree on this pretty much universally. 

If you have dabbled in ruined orgasms, then then you may have noticed that past the first 2-3 semen release cycles (thanks  @reddog152 for the term) things can become weird, and it's possible to find yourself in a refractory period even if you did the ruined orgasm "right". So having the penis stimulated during the ejaculation is not always necessary, but it's a big part of it. On the other hand, you can masturbate for an hour and never trigger the refractory period as long as you don't ejaculate, so I don't think penis stim by itself can do it. Just getting bored is not the same thing. 

I recently played with ruined orgasms with an Aneros inserted, and it was very repeatable for me for 3 sessions in a row. The goal was to get more "normal" feeling ejaculatory Os and skip the more uncomfortable (to me) parts. I'll start another thread about this, but it basically made me even more confused about how things work, honestly. I think anyone should be able to replicate this for themselves as long as they are not concerned with the potential of Aneros+penis causing issues with their rewiring.  

I’d read Keesling’s book back in the day, and for a few weeks had been serious about the Kegel routines.  I tried it again a few years later, wondering if I’d simply overlooked something.  Looking back, I’m happy I fell out of love with it both times, since my path to bliss has been wonderfully, unexpectedly different, starting last year.

Posted by: @zentai

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Even that part is still debated, like we can observe here : https://www.nature.com/articles/s42003-020-01570-4

@Zentai, thanks for bringing that new information to light for me. That was an interesting article. It appears that prolactin release is correlated to the refractory period but is not causal to the effect. As the article intimates there may be other neurotransmitters/hormones at work here and we can not rule out an entourage phenomenon occurring as a result of the ejaculatory reflex. Our bodies are indeed very mysterious bio-machines, so much yet to learn.

Good Vibes to You!

@rumel 

There are some earlier studies about this where they suspected prolactin was not the "culprit", but since they are all done on mice and related rodents, I always took them with a grain of salt. Of course the paper will say that the mice sexual response is similar to that of humans, but how can we actually know ? Rabbits are multi orgasmic, and domestic pigs are Super-Orgasmic, with orgasms lasting 30+ minutes. Boars ejaculate for 5-8 minutes. These are all interesting factoids, but do they mean anything for us guys? I really don't know. But such huge variations between us and the other mammals make me pretty skeptical when it comes to just looking at lab mice and drawing conclusions.

Of course, I'm not a scientist, but if it was just one hormone doing it, the market ($$$) for a chemical that would inhibit whatever compound causes the refractory period would be even bigger than the one for ED medication.  To me, this means that the mechanism is quite complex, like you say an entourage effect would make sense, and it might be hard to replicate. 

Posted by: @helical

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Perhaps unintended, this is great advice for a newbie trying to wrap his head around it.

Yes Viginia there is a Santa Claus, or should I say Anal Claus. Its written in pencil, and never on stone. Cause that would be foolishness. lol

Posted by: @helghast

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I don’t know,I just love cumming. I don’t really mind how or why.

Here, Here! Cheers to cumming.

Posted by: @unfug

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BUT, you can have pure nerval orgasm w/o any pelvic response as well.

I experience this most of the time.

Posted by: @unfug

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I read that book just before I started with the Aneros. I don't recommend it. I really don't. Like, I mean it. Imho, it's a dead end. There might be people succeeding with her approach, but my gut feeling is, that they do something right "by accident", that's not part of her actual regimen.

@unfug You may be right that Keesling's approach may not be for achieving Aneros or aless S-Os. It may indeed be more suited for multi-orgasmic horizontal pushups with a partner. To assume that the people who had S-O success with her approach was by accident might be a broad generalization, perhaps? Her book could have a few things in it that might help some.

Y’all think too much.