Retracing steps.

Congratulations, you got this!

I've got this thing I call 5-10-15 where for the first 15 minutes things really ramp up quick, and when I check the clock I discover that each big ramp-up is always super close to happening in 5 minutes intervals, and after that I mainly stop caring. I don't know if there's something to it, just interesting that you time your sessions also.

Mind-muscle connection makes a lot of sense to me, in a way as long at it makes sense to you, that's the important part. And it's also cool to see you use an alternative path, where you exert more control instead of giving up control, and that it's working for you. Good job, not much else to add! 

@zentai I like to time things to see how fast I come back to certain milestones. Way back at the start,it took ages to orgasm,but the time has come right down now. The mind muscle  connection I feel is very important in the sense of sometimes if there is a dip,I remember where to flex to redirect things upwards. Different points feel different,the transverse muscles at the sides of the perineum give off slightly different feelings if I flex one side independently,which is something I’m building,can’t do it all the time but I’m getting there. In the beginning the whole hammock and sphincters flexed together,they are easily separated now,and so are the transverse muscles flexing together,I’ll nail down flexing them separately and get to work on other muscles in the region. I work one area at a time to build muscle memory then move on. Maybe if I’d spoke to you at the start I’d have went down the give up control path,but i started with what I knew,which was the logical approach of learning to manipulate the muscles that surround the gland to bump and massage it,and if massaging it brings pleasure and orgasm,then x amount of training should yield success,seemed logical to me at least hahahha.

@helghast well your logic paid off, it's clear that there are several ways to make this work, and it's a little late for me to just go back and try yours, just like trying to let go wouldn't work for you at this point since your own method is giving you great results, it wouldn't make any sense to switch things right now.

You're pretty much doing consciously what I'm doing unconsciously, and I guess we end up traveling to the same destination. Still doing everything A-Less or you have some sessions with your toys still? Just curious! 

@zentai Still A-Less,I’ve been thinking about whether or not to give the toys a go again. I think what happened for me was that I could make more sense of the musculature of the pelvic floor without something in there. But I might have more success with them now after what I’ve learned.

I wouldn’t say it’s too late for the let go path,there is still letting go when I move into involuntarilys,but I have learned that PO can be achieved manually. I can orgasm without invols. I think Invols for most people find the balance of massage and the relaxing of the tubes that our fluids exit from. I just learned how to put that together manually. Then I wonder is my focus on my floor another way of letting go,as this frees me from distraction and the need for something to happen if that makes sense. What I will say is that when a dip comes,it’s cool to be able to throw in a couple of contractions and restart the good times again.

@helghast When you contract your inner sphincter, do you extend that contraction further up, meaning constricting your rectum against your prostate? Do you contract any of your lower abs? What position typically is your body in when you're doing a session? Because of the activity, when you're focusing on muscle control and muscle-mind connection or visualization, does your mind ever wonder or does it stay pretty much focused? 

@helghast Haha I wanted to post something about the toy maybe interfering in some way, but didn't want to throw a wrench in the works or influence you, but it seems we have the same idea... at this point having a session with something inserted would probably be a great idea, since your control is better than before you'll have something your muscles can push and pull on, it fits well with your weight-training analogy.

It could be very interesting, at the very least you'll learn something new about how things fit together for you.

@zaqpol The idea is to lift the back of my pelvic floor up,thus bringing pressure up toward the prostate from the opposite direction that the contraction of the front of my pc is bringing,I visualise the back as going up,the front going down,transverse muscles come from the side. The external sphincter can then push extra pressure in a pulse like manner through to the gland.

Sure the mind is guilty of wander sometimes,but as I progress further along my path,this has got less. It’s not really much different to what you guys are doing,focusing on relaxing and letting it happen,I’ve just been focusing on trying to manipulate my muscles with more accuracy than I began with.

I don’t contract abs,they are working in the background at some level for any pelvic thrusts I may do,or other body movement. But I focus on the using my floor independently of everything else. 
I have two favoured positions. On a bed,on my back,legs flat on bed,spread moderately,soles of feet pointed at bedposts if you like. When things get going sometimes,I may raise my knees slightly so my heels are the point of contact with the bed. Or,I like a seat,I could do a car seat reclined back a bit,but I like the single chair in the living room. I can lean back into about 30 degrees. Knees spread,after a while I can prop up a bit on elbows so thumbs still can get to nipples,the elbow prop allows for some pelvic thrusts,not huge ones like a fitness video,just small ones for momentum.

Don’t know how I’ve hit quote on my own comment  lol

@zentai yea for sure I’ll try the toy again at some point,but having some fun now, so I’ll leave it for a minute. I’ll have to see if the muscles will tolerate a lack of freedom. I guess I see it like some here see the progasm,it just fills you so much,not much can move. I had a small orgasm with the helix,but progress was slow,once I went a-less I had room to work as it were and progress sped up. 

@helghast The focusing on relaxing and letting it happen thing doesn’t work for me. I like your approaches and will try to incorporate some of them. The muscle-mind visualization make lot of sense. About how long did it take you to get to this point with this approach?

@zaqpol Oh I don’t know,the first few weeks,nothing much happened with helix,after a few months I’d had p-waves and a small orgasm. A bit of lurking around here,I discovered A-Less. Again nothing much happened for a few sessions. Then it just came to me to get focused on the muscles,my pelvic floor was already stronger than the average person I would think due to the squats in the gym. But I incorporated a Kegel routine anyways. I started to concentrate on manipulation of the muscles ,getting used to them,I thought they had room to work without the toy.We are not really aware of these muscles usually as they are kind of working away in the background. I read up more and studied diagrams of them,their locations etc I tried to be aware what had flexed during a session. I practiced holding some on,while flexing others etc. I think after a few weeks,I had an A-less orgasm,then I had two or three per session. It didn’t take long,but I was used to doing mind muscle connections anyways. Most here probably do the same sort of thing with their toys. You know,when they talk on the wiki about listening,I guess I am doing that too,I guess I listen to the pleasures that accompany pelvic floor movement. I do go to involuntary city,so I do relax abit I suppose,but the mind muscle connection is what clears my mind of distraction,and it works for me,sometimes I try erotic fantasy,it can’t always break in to the mind,often it’s the pleasure that’s motivating me forwards. So I’d been having PO for quite a while but no super o,maybe zen tai was right,the research id done,videos id watched and stories I read here maybe held me back a bit. I did know I’d had successes,I also reminded myself that these were dwarfed by others success and that’s probably a negative mindset to be in. They gotten a lot better since i talked to zen tai in earlier posts,I just forget others successes now and just work on milking all I can out of mine...pun very much intended.

@helghast I think that basically everyone is doing pretty much the same thing, but our perception of what we are doing is very different. Yeah like you I do contractions, like I said elsewhere I can't get the "do nothing" approach to work for me, in my mind I do the bare minimum, and I think I did minimal work in really separating each muscle. But I got my first successes with the toy and switched to Aless relatively late, so I guess that with the toy pushing and stroking everything and giving feedback, less actual control is necessary since you don't feel that you are doing all the work. The Aneros gives you more leverage and some automatic body responses to having something both inside and outside of you at the same time. 

And even if after a long analysis, we discover that we're doing everything completely opposite, well that's just great news because it means that a lot of different strategies are available to people. But I think we probably meet somewhere in the middle. 

@zentai Yes I do believe we all do similar things but just view it slightly different. I’m not good at explaining things,I don’t actually mean do nothing approach,I mean how ppl say you have to relax and let it happen,allow yourself to be taken. I suppose I view it as with the focus and connections on muscles,I am making it work with good old fashioned graft lol I don’t know,maybe I’m coaxing it out,instead of it coaxing me. Makes my head hurt,but things are progressing so that’s all that matters. I don’t know how ppl find time for do nothing approach,I saw a video of this. They guy is on the floor with edits displaying on the video,one saying he’d laid still for 90 Mins until things started to happen. I thought wow,who’s got time for that lol 

Hehe just to play devil's advocate using that 90 minutes session. We don't know anything about "the guy".

• If he gets automatic super-o after 90 minutes and it always works, 90 minutes is worth it!
• If he tried everything and it's the only way that works, 90 minutes is worth if for a good super-o.
• And I can't believe the whole time before seeing some action was horribly sucky, the first 89 minutes couldd be very pleasant quiet meditation. Or a 90 minutes super slow buildup could be quite intense.

But for sure, if you can make it in 15 minutes, you won't be trying the 90 minutes way, unless it's what you want specifically, a longer session with less concentrated pleasure, and that's if the 90 minutes method works for you in the first place...

@zentai The edit say he’s just relaxing for the 90 mins. Then things happen,think he has a couple of super o in it,over 2-3 hrs.

@helghast Yeah that's a long session, not debating that, I like to shoot for 60 minutes, enough time for good things to happen but not something that uses up the whole evenin, but if things are really good I'll last as long as I can. 2-3 hours each and every session would be a bit much for me.

@zentai me too,20-60 mins for me,depends how fast I can ratchet the old gland up lol

@helghast You may very well have developed a new technique. That technique works for you and it's an unknown if it will work for others. Having said that, I think your technique is brilliant, because it's a non-passive approach that engages your mind. This engagement is a shift from accepted conventional Aneros approaches.  

I'm not sure that I agree with @zentai that everyone is doing pretty much the same thing. Could your of approach work for the minority, whose brains are always analytical and can't turn off? I haven't been doing this that long, but can attest to having a mind that won't turn off, no matter how much meditation or relaxation. I forced my first multiple orgasm session and I was very conscious that I was forcing it. After, I actually felt guilty, like I had cheated, because what did, didn't conform to conventional Aneros thinking. 

I often think of those guys on the forum that have been at this for 8 or 10 years with very little results or none. Might they have a brain organization that makes reaching any prostate dry orgasm impossible when they use approaches that work for the vast majority, but for the small minority don't? Telling these guys to just keep focusing on relaxing and letting it happen, is really saying they need to work harder. Especially after so much time invested this is cruel. These people are not defective, their minds might work differently from most. This or other alternative approaches might help this minority.

@zaqpol Maybe i did,maybe I didn’t lol I just see it as the focusing of the mind and muscles is a kind of mind relaxation,sure it wanders an odd time but mostly that’s what I think about and I don’t think of anything else,except the pleasure that comes with the various movements. I do try to inject some erotic stuff,but even that struggles to join the connection. Yes,perhaps the chill out and let go isn’t for everyone,but you can certainly rub one out lol I can orgasm without invols,of course it’s more fun with them. But the learning of the manipulation of different muscles have got me to where I am now whereas I can easily retrace the steps in minutes. I don’t have to be in the zone,p-waves come right away and orgasm although not super o comes within five mins,I can stop,start and just continue on. I guess I’ll move on from the mini super o in good time. I’ll figure out how it’s done,I’m confident about that. Then I guess I’ll do the super o in sets and reps hahahahha

@zaqpol

I'm not even sure I believe it myself hehe, but I don't want to backpedal on this, I think it's mostly true in a general way, but... 

Session 1 I'm listening to some hardcore porn with binaural beats, flexing hard on the Progasm and flicking my nipples aggressively, things starts to heat up, then it builds to a series of orgasms.

Session 2 I'm laying on the floor in a dark cool room, nothing inserted and listening to some classical music compilation, I'm doing some breathing exercises, things start to feel really good, then it builds to a series of orgasms.

The resulting orgasms will have a different flavor, but I think the more active approach in session 1 will get me pretty close to my own version of what @helghast is doing where I'm driving the experience, but saying that session 2 is "about the same", yeah it's not really true... I'd be closer if I said that everyone's "active" approach will have a lot of similarities, and everyone's "passive" approach should be pretty similar too... now the results from each, that can vary wildly.