Mini "castration complex"

I think the duality is dominance and submission.  I don't mean latex, ball gags and figging (go ahead, look that one up).  I mean the more general ideas of dominance and submission.  Dominance means sober control: control of a scene, control of one's own pleasure, control of one's emotions.  Submission is letting go: following pleasure, letting someone else take the reins, letting go emotionally.

In heterosexual sex, men naturally take on the dominant role and women naturally take on the submissive role, because that is what society, media and pornography tell them to do.

But not all heterosexual men and women are naturally dominant and submissive, respectively.  There are many dominant women and submissive men, and many switches.  You say many penile-centric men never realize this, but many vaginal centric women never realize this either.  So many heterosexual women would enjoy sex much more if they were able to take a dominant role.  There is a multitude of ways to find out our true nature, and for us men, aneros and prostate play is an excellent one!

(The reason I refer to heterosexual men and women above is because queer folk have the advantage of having no assigned roles, and thus they must think about questions of dominance and submission very early on.)

Posted by: @divine_o

Dominance means sober control: control of a scene, control of one's own pleasure, control of one's emotions.  Submission is letting go: following pleasure, letting someone else take the reins, letting go emotionally.

I love this. A balanced duality is IMHO the key to an expanded pleasure palette. Surrender is something the masculine is not particularly comfortable with and that rigidity has consequences. Would you say that accepting penetration is feminine? I do, and what if we had not surrendered that part of our masculinity? Our conditioning dictates that lying in an orgasmic mess on the floor is a feminine trait and I get the feeling that that particular condition prevents many a man from surrendering to orgasmic bliss. I can feel the frustration in new users pleading for help because they feel nothing or very little, and wonder if their mental preparation has been adequate i.e. have they confronted there beliefs about their masculinity and femininity? Our conditioning is incredibly strong and often unconscious and I do believe that often the blocks that unresponsive newbies experience are not physical in nature. I was recently reading and account from a woman who is 47 years old and has not experienced an orgasm as an adult. She has memories of being orgasmic when she was very young, around 5 years old, and masturbated often. Her response at that early age was not sexual, it was experiential and she played with herself often until she was caught by her mother at age around 7. The repercussions were so dire and damaging she still has not climbed out of the hole, despite being aware of it. She knows she is physically capable of orgasm, she just cannot get past block created by her mothers reaction.

I know how much my attitude has changed over the years that I spent training my body to accept multi-orgasmic pleasure. I am not sure what precipitated each of my break throughs, but I know I am not the man I was at the beginning of my journey. I really don't know how you tell someone at the beginning of their journey to go and examine their beliefs and thoughts, without sounding like an arrogant twit.

I do love discussing this stuff though.

Posted by: @divine_o

I think the duality is dominance and submission.

Your topical leap to dominance/submission was unexpected, enlightening and delightful.  Excellent elucidations, gents, furthering an examination of the main role I’ve taken in my sex life, as well as where I might allow fresh light of inquiry to shine upon.

Posted by: @rickr

I really don't know how you tell someone at the beginning of their journey to go and examine their beliefs and thoughts, without sounding like an arrogant twit.

A whiff of arrogance should not be smelled so long as advice is couched empathetically.  Learning in general can contain an element of “hear me now… believe me later”.  The experienced helpfully place a seed in the pupil.  The pupil can’t fully apprehend it until he has sweated in the garden in good faith that his continued labors may one day bear fruit.

Posted by: @divine_o

figging (go ahead, look that one up)

"Now, bring us some figgy pudding, and bring it out here!"  -Lyrics from "We Wish You a Merry Christmas"

@rickr

I think that penetrating roles are biologically implicit based on our anatomy. But I also think that these biological differences are minimal, because we are reasoning beings (if not always reasonable), and we can choose our own paths.  That is where people who compare humans to other animals, or even to the “natural” human, get it wrong. We are so disconnected from our distant origins and so imbibed with culture and our own thoughts, that no comparison is possible.  So while for some theoretical form of strictly biological human being, penetrating is masculine and being penetrated is feminine, there is no reason for free-thinking humans to feel tethered to these categories.

But wait, in modern western culture the penetrator is masculine and the penetrated, feminine (or a gay man, who in many places also enjoys the “other” status that women are privy to in our patriarchal society).  This is engrained in our heads from a young age, and it is taken a step further by stigmatizing the penetrated. Take the English language: “he fucked me over, he screwed me...” or the common glorification of male “players” and the denigration of female “sluts,” both of these being oppositely charged words to describe the same promiscuity.

So if the direction of penetration is biologically and culturally implicit in our genders, shouldn’t it make sense to stick to the storyboard? Or is it possible that our culture—which is heavily based on the blind lies of religion, capitalist mainstream media, and our friends and family who have just as little a clue as we do—might be wrong?

I think that the dichotomy of male penetrator and female receiver is inherently wrong.  We grow up bombarded on all sides by this idea, and we believe that the preschool level geometry of peg-fits-in-hole must be the only correct answer.  And then we have to spend years of our adult lives deconstructing it (or not) to see it for the lie that it is. There is no reason for this lie to exist in the first place nowadays, when sex is mainly for pleasure and rarely for reproduction.

So all this ranting to say that, yes, I agree that penetration is masculine and accepting penetration is feminine, but only through the skewed lens of today’s society (and on a biological level of reproduction).  I hope that more and more people open their eyes to this lie, and that in following generations sexualities will blossom more fully. Because once one gets over the roles of biological gender in sex, the gates spring wide open, and there remain only dominance and submission...

I know that when I am a hot mess of submission, it doesn’t have any effect on my momentary perceived gender, because for me gender and dominance are separate things. 

Also as a side note, sissification makes me uncomfortable through its transformation of a man into a woman, and thus into an inherently submissive being.  Not saying people shouldn’t do it—everyone can do what they want. Just, it makes me uncomfortable, because I don’t think gender should be conflated with dominance.  

@helical

Interesting, that lyric... Naughty little Christmas elves!

Posted by: @divine_o

Because once one gets over the roles of biological gender in sex, the gates spring wide open, and there remain only dominance and submission...

I know that when I am a hot mess of submission,

I am greatly enjoying all preceding observations, magically coming to me just at the time in my life when I am receptive to them.

My, has Aneros play aroused great thirst to occasionally become a hot mess of submission, absent in my relationship confined to neat little boxes.  At least there's self-play until that may ever change.

Posted by: @divine_o

So all this ranting to say that, yes, I agree that penetration is masculine and accepting penetration is feminine, but only through the skewed lens of today’s society (and on a biological level of reproduction).  I hope that more and more people open their eyes to this lie, and that in following generations sexualities will blossom more fully. Because once one gets over the roles of biological gender in sex, the gates spring wide open, and there remain only dominance and submission...

Spot on here. And I think that younger generations are realizing the lie of conditioning which at the moment is manifesting as people identifying either as trans or binary so much more than historically. Personally I think this trend will settle down, (not that it is wrong in any way, it is just part of our evolution) as people learn to embrace all of themselves, masculine and feminine.

@rickr

Posted by: @rickr

Spot on here. And I think that younger generations are realizing the lie of conditioning which at the moment is manifesting as people identifying either as trans or binary so much more than historically. Personally I think this trend will settle down, (not that it is wrong in any way, it is just part of our evolution) as people learn to embrace all of themselves, masculine and feminine.

I wouldn’t call it a lie. The typical conditioning in our species pretty crucial,since its the foundation of reproduction,and without it,our species becomes extinct.

Id counter that trans and non binary people are about the furtherest one can get from embracing masculinity and femininity. One wants to be the polar opposite of what they are,the other doesn’t want to be any. Both can’t accept who they are. Modern science dictates gender dysphoria is a mental ilness. Disclaimer: I have no issues about how others live,it’s just a perspective. 

I do agree there is a degree of trend to it all,but also that there is many genuine cases.

@helical

For me,it’s a mistake thinking that prostate and mmo is born of the female realm. It’s a male gland,females don’t have one. Prostate orgasm is all ours. We’ve always possessed the abilities we have learned. We just didn’t know in the earlier days,as we were busy saving the species from getting wiped out. 😉

Posted by: @helghast

Modern science dictates gender dysphoria is a mental ilness.

I don't think science 'dictates' gender dysphoria is a mental illness. "Gender dysphoria: A concept designated in the DSM-5 as clinically significant distress or impairment related to a strong desire to be of another gender, which may include desire to change primary and/or secondary sex characteristics. Not all transgender or gender diverse people experience dysphoria."

It is a very real distressing phenomenon for those who experience it, but to label it an illness may be inappropriate. I think you might learn to open your mind to the complexity of real human sexuality after viewing this SciShow video called There Are More Than Two Human Sexes. Some gender dysphoria may very well be based on undiagnosed genetic permutations which naturally occur. Intersexed people are more common than most of us realize and these individuals face multiple challenges trying to fit into binary gender roles given their indefinite sexual genetics. Modern science is showing we are more varied than ever previously thought.

Good Vibes to You!

@rumel

Whilst it is a recognised condition within the scientific community,I watched an interview with a trans women who said herself it was a mental health condition and the only cure being transition,so that’s was straight from the horses mouth for me. Again,the modern science bit is what trans people themselves say when ‘old’ penis/vagina man/woman sciences is thrown up to them.The suicide rate among them is another indicator of mental health issues. That’s not to say they’re all a bunch of crazies,as many things factor into that.  I realise not all trans people might accept or believe that,and that’s ok. But we each are entitled to our own take on things. Sometimes minefield type topics come up on the forum,this is one for sure. 

Posted by: @helghast

I wouldn’t call it a lie.

The lie isn’t biological gender, except for a small percentage of folk who legitimately have gender dysphoria.  Most people, including many non binary people, are fine with their biological bits as well as biological roles (ie child bearing or not), and the survival of our species is much more threatened by endocrine disrupting plastics and global warming than it is by the current trend of gender questioning.

The lie I am talking about is the societal layer of gender. The stuffing into boxes that says that men go vroom vroom and women go broom broom.  And I am specifically talking about in the bedroom, that one place where no one has to know that you don’t accept the dictates of modern society.

I am curious, @helghast, how you feel about masculinity and femininity when the missus is cramming a dildo in your butt.  I know that you had hesitations in the beginning.  Do you think about these things now? Or have you now banished useless thoughts about gender from your mind, and learned to enjoy it fully? (I think I know the answer, based on your posts.)

@helghast, I'm sorry you missed the point I tried to make.

Good Vibes to You!

I don't think we have a clue what unmolested sexuality looks like. I look at all the conditioning around sex, and the effect it has had on my sex life with my significant other, and I marvel that the race didn't die out centuries ago.

Posted by: @divine_o

I am curious, @helghast, how you feel about masculinity and femininity

This is a question I have been asking myself more and more, and am becoming less and less interested in the answer. I think because I am getting more and more comfortable with all of myself.

@divine_o

I didn’t mean specifically biological gender,or sexuality etc just that not everyone sees conditioning as a lie. Something isn’t necessarily so just because someone somewhere nowadays says it is. There are opposing views. There are many factors to undoing things we’ve always known about so called social conditioning. Of course new discoveries are made too.

Pollution,plastics are just the top of the iceberg among other things are causing declining sperm rate. But changing attitudes toward sexuality and reproduction may cause us a lot of problems in the future. China is wrestling with its burgeoning older population due to its one child policy,if two people have one child,one young person is under them supporting them when they get old. In the fifties the average family was around five. I think it’s 1.8 now and falling. Feminist narratives now ,that women aren’t baby makers could land us in big trouble in coming years. It’s ok taking everything apart,but what might it cost us?

Gender roles may be poison to some people,but not necessarily to all. It’s just an opinion. All to often nowadays if you don’t jump on board the current band wagon,your either some type of phobe or narrow minded. This is also an attack on free thinking,it’s the same this that gets accuses the other way.

No i don’t believe my wife pegging me makes me feminine,or that it is feminine. Penetration is what it is at the time. If you penetrate a woman,it’s just that,if she penetrates you,it’s just that too. I worried at the start about this among other things,but I’m still me,as masculine as I ever was. 

Posted by: @helghast

All to often nowadays if you don’t jump on board the current band wagon,your either some type of phobe or narrow minded. This is also an attack on free thinking,it’s the same this that gets accuses the other way.

I don't think anyone is being accusatory here, so this is beside the point.  We are all just discussing.

Posted by: @helghast

No i don’t believe my wife pegging me makes me feminine,or that it is feminine. Penetration is what it is at the time. If you penetrate a woman,it’s just that,if she penetrates you,it’s just that too. I worried at the start about this among other things,but I’m still me,as masculine as I ever was. 

I didn't ask if it made you more feminine.  I asked if you are able to enjoy it fully without nagging thoughts of gender roles.  My original idea above was that those who can ignore societal and biological gender roles in the bedroom can focus on what really matters for pleasure: domination and submission.  You are taking part in something that goes against both societal and biological gender roles, and enjoying it fully, and you aren't being distracted by the dictates of society.  That is, no guilt, no feeling weird for being different, only being in the moment and all that it has to offer.  You even say penetration is "just that," that is, not inherently masculine or feminine.  Again, society and biology don't say the same thing as you: walk up to a hundred men on the street and ask what they think about male penetration.  But you have broken free of these particular constraints.

So I can't help but think that we agree here...

@divine_o

Yea I guess we do agree. I probably just read into wrong,I can do that…easily 🙂 With any kind of penetration,I never considered the society part much. I was only concerned with what the wife would think in my case.

I’m still not so sure people see male penetration as feminine though. A lot would would go for gay I believe,but I don’t see any link to femininity.

Posted by: @divine_o

So all this ranting to say that, yes, I agree that penetration is masculine and accepting penetration is feminine

Posted by: @helghast

It’s a male gland,females don’t have one.

A little late to the party here, I was waiting to see if this would turn into a biological or philosophical discussion, guess it's a little bit of both. If I reframe the original question :  can we fall in a trap of the male/female duality, and what happens when a male doesn't use his penis and finds his pleasure from prostate stimulation instead, does it take him nearer the female experience, and then what effect would it have on his own perception of his maleness when he takes what he perceives as the more feminine role ?

Putting aside the gender role aspect, prostate play is a masculine thing and can't be anything else, as Helghast puts it, it's a male gland. The fact that reaching the prostate in the most effective way involves anal penetration should be secondary, in my mind. It's all about location, if the prostate was right under the belly button and you could easily stimulate it externally that way, then I think no one would wonder if it's feminine. We'd talk about those damn millennials staying in bed all day playing with their prostate and no one would find any gay or feminine undertones. Then again, anal penetration should be seen as gender neutral as both men and women can practice it and enjoy it, either in the active or passive role, and what about couples using double ended dildos anally, who's masculine and who's feminine here? 

Posted by: @helghast

I’m still not so sure people see male penetration as feminine though. A lot would would go for gay I believe,but I don’t see any link to femininity.

Now if a man imagines feels he's playing the female part when he uses an Aneros or dildo or is getting penetrated by a penis, or if on the contrary he thinks he's enjoying the full possibilities of his maleness as a prostate owner, that's for each man to decide experience for himself, and that's where I think the real question of "accepting penetration" being feminine lies.

Again putting aside the gender identity thing, and I don't want to make a caricature here in any way, but two big, bearded, muscular men fucking is a pretty masculine thing by definition, two males, no woman involved, where's the feminine part? . Society says it's also homosexual, and well I can't argue with this, but it does not mean the receptive partner feels in that moment that's he's taking the "woman's role". But if he does feel that way, then that makes it true for him and no amount of discussion would change this.

On the other end, I don't think that for solo Aneros practice, true submission and dominance take place. Who's dominating, and who's submitting? Thinking that the mind is dominating the body, or that the body is accepting submission form the mind and vice versa, is accepting a separation between both that doesn't really exists, it's only ever YOU... 

As for the more complicated nuances found in submission/dominance in a couple setting, I'll leave this to people with actual experience, and I'll just end this by saying that biologically, anal penetration between humans was probably not intended, but I'm pretty sure it did not take much time for people to discover it was possible, and that probably took place well before there was a notion of gender roles and such... 

@helghast I agree and I’m happy prostate-owners have a great secret we can claim for our “camp”.

@zentai It would be grand if the prostate were easily accessible below the belly button!

So am I a @divine_o ’s non-binary person (“…many non binary people, are fine with their biological bits as well as biological roles…”) in the sense that I accept self-penetration as a necessity for accessing prostate pleasure?  And giving further evidence of that is “suffering” some pleasure at the anus and rectum concomitant with that lifelessly-termed act of “accessing”?  Instead of non-binary, maybe I'd be better termed a flexible mix of dominant and now submissive, what with my Aneros use?

For whatever it’s worth, I am comfortable as masculine.  This includes dressing, walking, talking, thinking in typical masculine thought-patterns and performing traditional masculine roles in a “hetero” lifestyle.  Lol Monty Python - Lumberjack Song

Since Aneros use and this Forum I grasp more firmly now the limiting solitudes of biological male must go “vroom vroom”* and female must go “broom broom”* and we mustn’t “cross the streams”.  *Thanks @divine_o for this playful treatment which may help diffuse mental roadblocks in a heart-to-heart conversation.

@divine_o Am I to understand correctly that receiving any kind of pleasure where one is not the “doer” is submissive?  That would mean receptive oral sex or handjobs and thus many men would thus need to own up to a submissive streak.  @zentai had written a little about this: my mind boggles if Aneros use is considered simultaneously submissive and dominant.  But I suppose good ol’ jacking off is as well, so maybe melding doer with receiver is not so foreign.  Funny- I had heard a term for masturbation as “queering yourself”, I suppose the logic so-goes, you’re handling the genitals of a member of the same sex(!)

Regardless, maybe it’s all moot or leastwise unimportant relative to (my paraphrasing of @helghast) “just be” oneself, “just be” in the act.

@zentai about "(...) is a pretty masculine thing by definition (...)" doesn't masculinity and femininity exist only in relation to each other?  There's no magnetic north with no magnetic south... there's no light without darkness... there's no yin without yang?

@zentai about “anal penetration between humans was probably not intended” (biologically) (male)- I’m not lobbying for or against this sexual act.  But I thought I read somewhere, it’s uncanny this pleasure-organ is found at the right depth in a canal accommodating of an average male member.  Maybe the female A-spot is similarly positioned in any case?  Then again, neither biological sex’s canal self-lubricates, and my staking the claim, it is relatively vulnerable for not having the robust biology the alimentary and vaginal tracts do.  Yet the "design" of people might not have been done with such pleasure in mind... physics governs what's evolutionarily-possible too: Universal law of urination found in mammals

To what extent I can integrate the practical ramifications of my mental expansion into my relationship is unknown.  Headway may be outright blocked or limited because of a closed-minded partner.  Yet it could do no harm to raise some fraction of it up, at least give it some chance for her to free her mind if only a little?  Show her an Aless?  Ooh but that may mean her introduction to my nipples (ooh her warning bells may be triggered!)  In any case I might be more comfortable in thinking of it and explaining it to her as doer/receiver instead of dominant/submissive (or vroom vroom, broom broom), because the D-S may be mentally negatively associated with foreign and extreme practices.  Fellas, I need luck and courage.  My relationship’s sexual aspect has long been stunted at the bud, all the while even within a narrow sub-band of “vanilla”.  And to grow it I perceive would require much work, if it even were to grow much at all.  Doing so may even alienate me to her.  I am not the glass ceiling, I am open-minded, in more ways than she may/will ever know.  Although I suffer a common case, I ask myself sometimes how have I put up with frustration.

Posted by: @zentai

The fact that reaching the prostate in the most effective way involves anal penetration should be secondary, in my mind. It's all about location, if the prostate was right under the belly button and you could easily stimulate it externally that way, then I think no one would wonder if it's feminine. We'd talk about those damn millennials staying in bed all day playing with their prostate and no one would find any gay or feminine undertones. Then again, anal penetration should be seen as gender neutral as both men and women can practice it and enjoy it, either in the active or passive role, and what about couples using double ended dildos anally, who's masculine and who's feminine here? 

Posted by: @zentai

Again putting aside the gender identity thing, and I don't want to make a caricature here in any way, but two big, bearded, muscular men fucking is a pretty masculine thing by definition, two males, no woman involved, where's the feminine part? . Society says it's also homosexual, and well I can't argue with this, but it does not mean the receptive partner feels in that moment that's he's taking the "woman's role". But if he does feel that way, then that makes it true for him and no amount of discussion would change this.

It is all about location, but... it just so happens that our special location is in our butts.  And it just so happens that men have no biological reason to be penetrated, and women do.  Most hetero men are ignorant of what penetration entails, as they have never been and never will be penetrated.  Thus they are afraid, afraid of being gay or of being feminine.  And often these two things are equivalent in men's mind.  Think about these insults: fag, sissy, little girl, pansy... they are often used in the same context.

I love this example, which I agree is manly AF.  As you have gathered by now, I personally don't think that two homosexual men having sex effeminates the penetrated man.  That is what I am arguing against.  But society does.  It is something that ignorant straight men ask about gay couples all the time: who is the woman?

Posted by: @zentai

On the other end, I don't think that for solo Aneros practice, true submission and dominance take place. Who's dominating, and who's submitting? Thinking that the mind is dominating the body, or that the body is accepting submission form the mind and vice versa, is accepting a separation between both that doesn't really exists, it's only ever YOU... 

I disagree here.  Domination and submission isn't only between two people.  You can be in a dominant state: in control, cold and calculated, emotionally stoic.  Or you can be in a submissive state: open to emotions and sensations.  Maybe I am the only one that feels this way, and this part of my theory falls to pieces.  But take jerking off as an example.  When you do so you are controlling every movement, it is a generally quiet act, with an explosion of emotion and pleasure that lasts 10 seconds at the very end.  Essentially you are in a dominant mental state up until the brief orgasm, which is forced upon you by physiological mechanisms. On the other, with a toy in, you start off in a submissive posture--a foreign object is in a cavity of your body.  Then you follow pleasure, not the other way around.  You moan and writhe.  You are defenseless for minutes at a time as you have reality-warping orgasms in chains.  Though you choose your path, you don't choose what happens to you.

I think about this stuff all the time.  I still don't know if domination and submission are the right words, as they are, as @helical pointed out, charged, and as you point out, they imply multiple people.  So what are some other words to describe the pleasure giver-receiver dichotomy, one that doesn't need a second person, as pleasure can be gleaned through interaction with objects and through our own minds?

Posted by: @helical

@divine_o Am I to understand correctly that receiving any kind of pleasure where one is not the “doer” is submissive?  That would mean receptive oral sex or handjobs and thus many men would thus need to own up to a submissive streak.  @zentai had written a little about this: my mind boggles if Aneros use is considered simultaneously submissive and dominant.  But I suppose good ol’ jacking off is as well, so maybe melding doer with receiver is not so foreign.  Funny- I had heard a term for masturbation as “queering yourself”, I suppose the logic so-goes, you’re handling the genitals of a member of the same sex(!)

I think that opening up to pleasure, just like opening up to all emotions is being submissive, being vulnerable.  But like I said, I don't know if this is the right word.  In terms of oral and handjobs: most men seem incapable of being submissive during these acts.  They enjoy them for other reasons, often for reasons of dominance.  Sure it feels good to be dominant, it feels good to physically get pleasured, but as long as you are in control, the pleasure is limited.  Have you ever seen a man being blown screaming and writhing in the same way certain women do when they get their pussy eaten? I don't know why it is so hard to lose control with direct penis stimulation, in the same way we lose control in anal sex and other less conventional acts. Maybe it is because we are programmed that way.  Maybe it is because we grew up masturbating.  Personally I get around this roadblock by having my partner almost exclusively play with my balls, and to touch my penis in ways I naturally wouldn't.

"Queering yourself" is a great expression.  I think it is important to say "making love to yourself" as well, and to treat masturbation and self touching in all its forms as a self-love.

Posted by: @helical

To what extent I can integrate the practical ramifications of my mental expansion into my relationship is unknown.  Headway may be outright blocked or limited because of a closed-minded partner.  Yet it could do no harm to raise some fraction of it up, at least give it some chance for her to free her mind if only a little?  Show her an Aless?  Ooh but that may mean her introduction to my nipples (ooh her warning bells may be triggered!)  In any case I might be more comfortable in thinking of it and explaining it to her as doer/receiver instead of dominant/submissive (or vroom vroom, broom broom), because the D-S may be mentally negatively associated with foreign and extreme practices.  Fellas, I need luck and courage.  My relationship’s sexual aspect has long been stunted at the bud, all the while even within a narrow sub-band of “vanilla”.  And to grow it I perceive would require much work, if it even were to grow much at all.  Doing so may even alienate me to her.  I am not the glass ceiling, I am open-minded, in more ways than she may/will ever know.  Although I suffer a common case, I ask myself sometimes how have I put up with frustration.

This is a whole different question because it is personal... but maybe she would be more comfortable in a more dominant role.  Like I said, many are dissatisfied with sex simply because they don't fall into their gender-assigned sex roles... perhaps it is easier to leave the philosophy aside and just ask her to do things non-traditional (but still vanilla) things to you and see if you both like it.  Let her see you in your receiving state.

I love the lumberjack song!  But my parrot's dead.

@divine_o

Posted by: @divine_o

it just so happens that our special location is in our butts.  And it just so happens that men have no biological reason to be penetrated, and women do.  Most hetero men are ignorant of what penetration entails, as they have never been and never will be penetrated.

So much to reply to,so little time lol.

We don’t necessarily need to be penetrated though do we? Neither do women’s butts.

Our pelvic muscles are more than up to the job of massaging our gland. Maybe nature never intended penetration,maybe the muscles were to serve more purpose than just propelling ejaculate out of outlet bodies! Since the gland is nestled strategically beaten them. Aneros for example staked the claim we needed a penetrating toy to go to the promised land,but those before us figured out we didn’t need to be penetrated when we can go A-Less. 

Posted by: @divine_o

I still don't know if domination and submission are the right words, as they are, as @helical pointed out, charged, and as you point out, they imply multiple people.  So what are some other words to describe the pleasure giver-receiver dichotomy, one that doesn't need a second person, as pleasure can be gleaned through interaction with objects and through our own minds?

I am also not enamored with the terms dominance and submission when it comes to solo Aneros use. Who is being dominated ? Who is being submissive ? It is only one person. Aren't you being dominant and submissive simultaneously ? This is another one of the paradoxes involved with the Aneros journey.

Since I am the one who instigates a session, I prepare myself, I arouse myself, I do the insertion (penetration), in those acts am I a dominant actor ? Once I've performed those acts, lay down, get comfortable, tune into my body, mindfully observing and begin to enjoy my body's response am I then submissive ?

Rather than the terms dominant and submissive, I prefer the terms assertive and receptive where your attitude is free to swing between these qualities even during an Anerosession. You are assertive when you consciously perform contractions, you are assertive when you consciously conjure fantasy to fuel arousal. You are receptive when you perceive the p-waves and the resulting orgasmic response. I don't think the source of the stimulation generating those p-waves, whether it be from penile, anal, oral or just self caressing, is even relevant at that point.

Good Vibes to You!

@divine_o 

I basically agree with most of what you're saying and I just feel it's a fun discussion to have, I don't think I'm more "right" than you are, but like you I think about this stuff all the time, so here's some "devil advocacy" for you to have some fun with.  

Posted by: @divine_o

As you have gathered by now, I personally don't think that two homosexual men having sex effeminates the penetrated man.  That is what I am arguing against.  But society does.  It is something that ignorant straight men ask about gay couples all the time: who is the woman?

I don't care too much about what society "thinks" in general about this particular topic, I may not be ready to expose myself as a prostate fun enthusiasm and shout it from the rooftops, and while I do know I would be judged for this, this doesn't follow me in the bedroom. I know most people would classify what I'm doing as being gay, feminine, maybe wrong or dirty, but I reached my own conclusion that for me, it's none of those things, and nothing forces me to have an argument with those "ignorant straight men" when I can have an actual productive conversation with the fine gentlemen on this forum.  

But I get it, men are convex, women are concave, the peg goes inside the hole, and the part of any electronics cable that does the penetration is the "male end" and any port that gets penetrated by that is the "female". I guess we're stuck with this interpretation since it's so deeply rooted in culture.

Women have no more biological reason to be anally penetrated than men, so if society was in any way smart, we could just say that anal play is something that both men and women can enjoy because it's fun and pleasurable... 

Posted by: @divine_o

On the other, with a toy in, you start off in a submissive posture--a foreign object is in a cavity of your body.

I just don't feel submissive in that scenario. Like putting a log in the stove is a necessary step to get heat, putting a toy in my bum is the same, it's just a required step to reach a goal. This does not mean that you or others don't feel that it has submissive undertones, neither is wrong or right. For me there's not an emotional response in the insertion, except anticipation. 

Posted by: @divine_o

I disagree here.  Domination and submission isn't only between two people.  You can be in a dominant state: in control, cold and calculated, emotionally stoic.  Or you can be in a submissive state: open to emotions and sensations.  Maybe I am the only one that feels this way, and this part of my theory falls to pieces.

If you see it that way, yes it's true, so your theory can stand. You can also be both at the same time, let's say in control right now but open to what might make you lose control. I'd say that this openness is almost required if you want so *stay* in control, you must watch what is happening outside your control and react accordingly. 

It's all about what you feel you are "doing" vs what you feel is "happening" to you. What if I use precise contractions in a precise way to trigger an orgasmic release, being open to emotions and sensations to steer me in the right direction, then stop doing anything consciously and enjoy the sensations as they continue automatically. Does it have to be about submission and dominance (or active and passive)? 

And yes I sometimes feel like things are outside my control or happening to me, did I ever say "Please fuck me" out loud and other things of that nature, yes. Am I submitting to myself at that moment, or submitting to my fantasies? I'm not sure if letting go of control is the same thing a submitting, or if it's more like acceptance. Maybe you're right, and the problem is that submission and dominance are very charged concepts and I can't accept them for what they truly are. 

Posted by: @divine_o

So what are some other words to describe the pleasure giver-receiver dichotomy [...]

I'm both giving to myself and receiving from myself, again all in solo practice sense. There's no argument that is a woman played with my prostate with her fingers, she would be the giver and I, the receiver. If later on, I insert a toy and try to mimic the exact same pattern with my own muscles, then I'm both the giver and the receiver. I can even try to finger myself the same way she did it... I guess I don't have an actual point to make here, except that in solo practice the terms are maybe more elastic in meaning than when a partner is involved, and making love to yourself has different rules than making love to someone else. 

Related, I once read a description of the coital alignment technique (CAT) from the 80s, which is a variant of missionary, and one of the point the author made is that with practice, both partners could get in a state where they were not sure who was doing the actual fucking, and who was giving and receiving, I don't remember the actual words that were used, but I think the same thing happens in some sessions, where I don't know exactly what I'm doing and just get lost in it, and there's both active and passive elements taking place at the same time. 

@zentai

Posted by: @zentai

Related, I once read a description of the coital alignment technique (CAT) from the 80s, which is a variant of missionary, and one of the point the author made is that with practice, both partners could get in a state where they were not sure who was doing the actual fucking, and who was giving and receiving

It’s great for the woman. Wife has asked for this many times. Basically,missionary,only my legs are out the outside and crushing hers together. My pubic bone is pinned against her clit,and best I can do is rock a little,thrusts can’t go in and out. Just down and up a little. But the constant grinding on the clit gives them a whopper of an O. I never actually ruminated over it,but now thinking back,I suppose I wasn’t really fucking her.  

@helghast

Yeah that's the one, with both partners finding the right rhythm and rocking their hips at the same time, one going down while the other goes up, then you'd be hard pressed (pun intended) to say who's doing the work. Now I don't know how easy it would be in practice and if you'd really get lost in it or if it was just some kind of publicity for that position, might be great with an Aneros by the way... 

Posted by: @rumel

Since I am the one who instigates a session, I prepare myself, I arouse myself, I do the insertion (penetration), in those acts am I a dominant actor ? Once I've performed those acts, lay down, get comfortable, tune into my body, mindfully observing and begin to enjoy my body's response am I then submissive ?

Rather than the terms dominant and submissive, I prefer the terms assertive and receptive where your attitude is free to swing between these qualities even during an Anerosession. You are assertive when you consciously perform contractions, you are assertive when you consciously conjure fantasy to fuel arousal. You are receptive when you perceive the p-waves and the resulting orgasmic response. I don't think the source of the stimulation generating those p-waves, whether it be from penile, anal, oral or just self caressing, is even relevant at that point.

I can dig assertive and receptive.

I think it is nitpicky to break down the micro-layers of assertion and receptivity within a session.  But I’m game, I like picking nits!

I agree that successful pleasure (solo or coupled) involves a constant switching between assertiveness and receptiveness, and not just pure receptiveness.  But there is still a difference between a generally assertive person and a generally receptive person.  You do a good job explaining this back and forth between moments of control and loss of control with solo aneros use.  What is particular about receptive people in general is simply the capacity to let go.  While an assertive person is always in control of themselves, a receptive person is able to lose control (i.e. intense hypnotic states, orgasms, etc.), even just briefly between moments of assertion.

Posted by: @zentai

I don't care too much about what society "thinks" in general about this particular topic, I may not be ready to expose myself as a prostate fun enthusiasm and shout it from the rooftops, and while I do know I would be judged for this, this doesn't follow me in the bedroom. I know most people would classify what I'm doing as being gay, feminine, maybe wrong or dirty, but I reached my own conclusion that for me, it's none of those things, and nothing forces me to have an argument with those "ignorant straight men" when I can have an actual productive conversation with the fine gentlemen on this forum.  

But I get it, men are convex, women are concave, the peg goes inside the hole, and the part of any electronics cable that does the penetration is the "male end" and any port that gets penetrated by that is the "female". I guess we're stuck with this interpretation since it's so deeply rooted in culture.

Women have no more biological reason to be anally penetrated than men, so if society was in any way smart, we could just say that anal play is something that both men and women can enjoy because it's fun and pleasurable...

Yup, I am just being an observer here, as you observed, and I agree with you.  Though I do like discussing this with people who see things drastically differently.

Posted by: @zentai

I just don't feel submissive in that scenario. Like putting a log in the stove is a necessary step to get heat, putting a toy in my bum is the same, it's just a required step to reach a goal. This does not mean that you or others don't feel that it has submissive undertones, neither is wrong or right. For me there's not an emotional response in the insertion, except anticipation. 

I am completely open to the possibility that we all have different relations to our toys’ physical presence in our bodies.  The moment I am penetrated, time is warped, I can hardly walk, it feels so intense that it is as if the toy goes all the way up to my nose.  I am penetrated, skewered, vulnerable… submissive!

Posted by: @zentai

I'm both giving to myself and receiving from myself, again all in solo practice sense. There's no argument that is a woman played with my prostate with her fingers, she would be the giver and I, the receiver. If later on, I insert a toy and try to mimic the exact same pattern with my own muscles, then I'm both the giver and the receiver. I can even try to finger myself the same way she did it... I guess I don't have an actual point to make here, except that in solo practice the terms are maybe more elastic in meaning than when a partner is involved, and making love to yourself has different rules than making love to someone else. 

You too have picked the nits. See above.

Posted by: @helghast

Basically,missionary,only my legs are out the outside and crushing hers together. My pubic bone is pinned against her clit,and best I can do is rock a little,thrusts can’t go in and out.

My girl loves it! Didn't know it was a named thing, but we did it one day and now do it pretty regularly.

Posted by: @helghast

Aneros for example staked the claim we needed a penetrating toy to go to the promised land,but those before us figured out we didn’t need to be penetrated when we can go A-Less.

Yes, there were ancient traditions.  But for me A-less with no prior @b-mayfield "Tantric training wheel" it's more probably no.  I am grateful for having come to Aneros's well-designed anatomical products.  Add to that the information-camaraderie-encouragement of this Forum and educational materials on the site.  Absent that, I might never have stuck to a solo endeavor, and not have achieved progress.

Posted by: @zentai

if society was in any way smart, we could just say that anal play is something that both men and women can enjoy because it's fun and pleasurable...

I think somewhere on bvibe.com termed it an "equal-opportunity pleasure zone".  Wow, makes me think world-peace n’ stuff and hope 

Posted by: @divine_o

that in following generations sexualities will blossom more fully

Posted by: @zentai

use precise contractions in a precise way to trigger an orgasmic release, being open to emotions and sensations to steer me in the right direction, then stop doing anything consciously and enjoy the sensations as they continue automatically

Sometimes I have trouble taking my hands off of the bicycle handle bars.  I can tend to keep making deliberate contractions- "pleasure *please* don’t quit just yet!"  Much to learn yet, this padawan has.

Posted by: @zentai

[...] nothing forces me to have an argument with those "ignorant straight men" when I can have an actual productive conversation with the fine gentlemen on this forum.

-Hear, hear!

Thanks @helghast and @zentai for the CAT discussion reminding me of what else I can go back to in bed and please her (and me too)

...I was hitting send on this when @divine_o 's reply directly above beat me to the punch : )

@divine_o

Posted by: @divine_o

You too have picked the nits. See above.

Yes I did ! Rumel posted while I was composing, I have this bad habit of starting a post and just wandering elsewhere, sometimes hours will pass before I hit send... Otherwise I might have decided on different nits, as we did pick similar ones, which is interesting but might not actually mean anything.

Posted by: @divine_o

I am completely open to the possibility that we all have different relations to our toys’ physical presence in our bodies.

I think that's an important observation, and I believe it's possible to also have very different relations with how we perceive the mental aspects. You see a clear submission/dominance aspect to the practice, while I can only see it by poking around and deconstructing stuff, and even then, I have to remove my glasses and squint a little. I have trouble seeing the various Aneros devices as anything more than leverage tools for my muscles, and I use these tools to help me trigger a mechanism or circuitry that's present in my body for some strange, unknown evolutionary reason. I think this point of view removes some of the sensuality and mystery, and I probably overlook some other aspects for similar reasons.

I know that at some point I have to let go of control, but it just doesn't register as submitting. I have some pretty rigid opinions regarding how the whole thing works, where I start, how the build-up takes place and where I need to be for things to go in auto-pilot. It makes it harder to actually let go sometimes, as I feel I'm pretty much in control, balancing arousal, relaxation and focus, until right before the Super-O hits. Maybe I need to revisit this way of thinking, I may be completely wrong about this and making things harder on myself, who knows?