Experimenting, and guilt

@Canacan,
Perhaps the ones that Aneros and feel guilt have no Joie de vivre. JMO

Practicing Protestant and lifelong Bible student here. Whether you think the Bible is the literal word of God or the work of human writers, one thing is certain: Whomever wrote the Bible was unquestionably aware of masturbation and never explicitly condemned it -- in any form. It's a purely sensual pleasure, quite different from sex with another person, and only an impediment to your relationship with God if you make it one.

You should feel no more guilt over using and enjoying an Aneros than you would over thinking your dinner tasted really good. You're not stealing someone else's food; you're not gluttonously hogging all there is of something; you're not even eating something you've explicitly been told not to. You're just enjoying what you have. I mean, I don't know what goes through your mind when you're having a session. I'm usually not thinking about anything other than how good it feels. I don't find myself thinking "I wish this thing was a penis."

I know it's one thing for me to say you shouldn't feel guilty and something else for you to feel it, but there you go.

I know what you're saying, deepinfocus, but then I must wonder how "masturbation=depravity" became an official teaching within the Catholic church, who it was, precisely, that decided it, etc.

But really it's not just Catholicism that rails against it... it's almost every mainstream religion. It is generally a sin within the Christian faith, although some branches are more forgiving than others. AFAIK, in some types of Islamic faith, it can even be an illegal act punishable if you're caught. Even Buddhism advises you to avoid it if possible, because it can "drain your energies." Hinduism is one of just a few exceptions where it's not explicitly wrong. (All this said, I may be inaccurate with some things here and also realize I'm speaking very generally.)

I'm not saying anyone should feel guilty; quite the contrary. I'm just pointing out that it seems to be considered immoral in many if not most of the common religions.

@Bartolo99
Catholicism, protestantism, judaism and islam are NOT every religion but only variations of ONE SINGLE religion : the monotheist hebraic faith (and among the jews are other very different beliefs too... The kabbalah is very different from judaism and indeed much closer to the other faiths and philosophies in the world).

To name just a few different views, India and Asia (which are both big old civilisations and quite populated areas, so you really can't take their faiths out of the "main religions" picture) celebrate good sex and solo cultivation (aka masturbation) as means to enlightment or health and longer life. The greeks where no different, the egyptians too, all old shamanic traditions around the world too... Which leaves you with only three religions (judaism, buddhism and yoga) being the exception in more or less refraining it, while all other tend to encourage it.

And from the three refraining it, if you look at the text and system closely, they are actually only concerned with the "spill of semen", which all other religions seem to want to avoid too. In short mostly every religion kind of agrees than ejaculating needlessly isnt too good... and losing grip with your life and community because of spending too much time pleasuring yourself is not too good either. But apart from that and a bunch of tyrants giving stricly forbidding orders based on no teachings (or so losely its a fallacy) only as means to sustain its political control (hello Vatican, hello Arabic countries), well everybody agrees it is either healthy or at worst the less of two evils.

Now,
- the oldest traditions (tao, tantra et al) say : highly recommend it, as it increases your energy and spirituality if you refrain from ejaculating too much... in a word: you should do Aneros... but get some help if you end up building energy you can't control anymore.
- And the most modern and advanced faith (that is science) says : very healthy as long as you don't arm yourself or devellop an addiction... In a word: do Aneros but not too much.

Finally logic makes me say:
- Stop blindly following everything you ear from gurus (however wise they may be)... Do your homework, do researches, experiment yourself and find your own solution as a responsible and intelligent adult man or woman. Everybody is different, your own body, current situation and environement call for specific adaptations. You are neither sheep nor child, nobody can make the wise choices for you. Make your own.
- Or maybe, you don't have the time, will and energy to do the homework... Then follow the advice your religion gives you and quit complaining and questioning. Make some sense and be at peace.

As always, this is only my current mindless rant, keeping up the free experiment.

P.S. and for what it's worth, wikipedia's view : http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_views_on_masturbation

"I know what you're saying, deepinfocus, but then I must wonder how "masturbation=depravity" became an official teaching within the Catholic church, who it was, precisely, that decided it, etc."

I think that the early Catholic church elders, Bishops, popes and theologians decided Canon law on the basis of what furthers the fortunes of the Church. So masturbation is a mortal sin because it doesn't increase the number of offspring, thus the size of congregations. Likewise celibacy is law for priests because the Church didn't want to share the inheritances of their clergy with their offspring. There is numerous instances of editing the scriptures to benefit the institution of the church. I'm not intending to demean them but find obvious practical reasons for what a young religion does. Of course they find theological justifications for their laws. Over time the original intent is lost and the justification becomes the reality. I'm probably going to get in trouble for saying this.

Thank you Canacan for the link.

I think when a religious does not have a healthy balance between male and female it is in essence dysfunctional.

Canacan, thanks for refreshing me on this, I hadn't exactly done my homework. In fact I have based much of what I said in that last post on the specific Wikipedia article you provided there. Of course, Wikipedia can provide basic facts, but it can't help much with interpretation.

euphemistic, very interesting as well.

@Bartolo99
I hope I didn't sound too harsh.

Now if you can't fully trust the wise, what about Wikipedia? It's not even reliable on basic facts. lol
I just use it as a partial source among many. But, well, on some subjects the best source is deep scrutiny yourself.

@Canacan,
Perhaps the ones that Aneros and feel guilt have no Joie de vivre. JMO

Perhaps yes. lol

.
Thank you Canacan for the link.

Oh, you liked it too?

You can check this whole section then : http://www.sss-now.org/forum/Finding_the_Sacred_in_Sex_Forum~9.htm

Aneros use isn't something necessary in life. If it isn't pleasurable and is guilt inducing, give it up. It probably isn't for you.

Very interesting discussion.

Bartolo said "I'm using my body as an amusement park and accomplishing nothing, gaining pleasure I don't deserve, because I'm certainly not a productive citizen or anything."


Assuming you have a vocation of some sort, you're productive enough doing that. Spending downtime with Aneros, among other pursuits is purely recreational. I hope you don't feel guilty about reading a book or going to a movie either.

Perhaps Aneros will motivate you to find a partner to share ALL your sexual activities. That may assuage your guilt or at least give you a partner in "sin."

Good luck,

Dave

Quoting: "I know what you're saying, deepinfocus, but then I must wonder how "masturbation=depravity" became an official teaching within the Catholic church, who it was, precisely, that decided it, etc."

I have sat on this for a while (perhaps a bit off topic now)

A Jesuit priest told a meeting I was attending that masturbation is at the top or very close to the worst sin. It is worse than raping a nun! The point he said was to keep young priests' hands in the air. He thought it did more harm than good. This confirmed an event long time a go: A young priest told me that marrying a woman was to become one with her. So having sex was in fact playing with oneself - masturbating. I laughed, but he got very very angry and told me (married) he was serious that there was little hope for me. He never spoke to me again! I am not sure if that is the official public teaching but he was very serious.
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It is a great pity that we are unable to celebrate our sexuality. I think we are so confused and dysfunctional and that causes so much pain and suffering. There is so much joy and pleasure in our bodies so if it harms no one else why not enjoy it while we have it.
"I won't eat this ice cream until it melts" syndrome

Wow @isvara, that is extremely disturbed thinking by the Jesuit priest. I went to a Jesuit college and heard the usual sex denigrating talk, my favorite when I confided to my spiritual advisor, a Jesuit, that I had sexual thoughts often: "sublimate! Sublimate! " with his eyes raised to heaven. I never heard that extreme perverted thinking that you heard. Talk about confusing and damning the youth. But that is the same church that hid child sexual abuse for centuries and still has not come to terms with the problem. I doubt that most Jesuits have the same bizarre ideas of sexuality that yours has. How did that affect you? Did it confuse or otherwise disturb your thinking about sex? Being inexperienced with their own sexuality and women's sexuality, being cloistered with other men who are in the same situation, and choosing this kind of life in the first place, is a recipe for ignorance and disordered thinking and emotions IMO. I'm still struggling with Catholic guilt from parochial school and college, nuns and priest and parents.

Catholicism seems to believe solely in the idea that there is no such thing has natural human functions or needs, and that everything is sublimated to the word of God! If complete sublimation is what is expected of every good Catholic, then ANYONE who engages in sexual activity is damned! Can anyone clarify for me where, in Catholic teachings, is sexuality approved in the word of God? I believe the answer I'm going to get is that it is only approved for procreation...period...end of story!

If that is the case, then God gave us all something (sexuality) which we are supposed to only use a few times in our entire life, unless of course God believes we are supposed to be creating progeny every year or two, which doesn't make sense either in current society!

So many examples exist in nature where the diversity of the gene pool improves the health of offspring, and creates a better animal or human, whereas inbreeding can destroy a species, seems to suggest natural selection is in play, yet where is this discussed at length in religion?

I see so many gaps between science and religion, it's difficult to believe religion has 100% of the answers we need as a civilization and as a species!

If guilt is pervasive for you, save your soul! If there is room in your mind for a belief that religious teachings are meant as a guide, and not a boundary, continue with aneros and accept these gifts from God!

TG

@euphemistic, I must clear up one misunderstanding regarding the Jesuit priest. His revealing the Catholic Churches teaching on the severity of the sin of masturbation was said in the context of a lecture on the Christian misinterpretation of the creation stories. He was extremely critical of his churches teaching on sexual sins. It was an epiphany for me, even though I am supposed to be a free wheeling non-catholic.
More later

@euphemistic, to follow on. I do see how such destructive teaching can cause problems to the growing person, however I think it runs deeper than that and it is possible the apparent destructive teaching may only be half the story. General culture is mainly to blame. Even in the most liberated families parents do not celebrate the first wet dream, or the first evidence of masturbation. Or condone it to discourage abuse through frustration and desperation through guilt. Also of course young people are not sexual until they are 18! Even though 22% of under 18s girls in the USA fall pregnant, go figure! Much less pregnancy in Europe but no less sex. Virgin conception is not accepted. 25% of 15yr olds girls have sexual intercourse, 33% of 16yo, and 50% of 17yo (Australian statistics). So there is a mega mismatch between reality and legal acknowledgement. This attitude, this denial of reality is the destructive influence that I think is much more powerful than any religious teaching. If we can see it this way then I think we can work around, or bypass the religious stuff. The religious stuff is most often influenced by the culture around it and unfortunately often lags behind the culture so pulls the evolution backwards creating ontological dysfunction.
We just need to get to the heart of the matter. I am NOT there yet, I have not yet been able to say to my partner I'm off for a bit of Anerosing, wish me every success!
Everyone is allowed to disagree with me!

@isvara said the mismatch between religion and culture "pulls the evolution backwards creating ontological dysfunction." Sometimes I feel like I'm living in a bizzaro world where everything is backwards. Tthe culture is shaped to protect children from sexual knowledge so and the adults have to accept that sexless bizzaro children's world, not a mature human adult world. Children thus grow up in an adult's fantasy of a sexless childhood and adulthood. I see it starkly in the old movies. Ontological dysfunction says it perfectly.

@theme_gasm, that is exactly Catholic church teaching about sex, that it's reserved for procreation only! I kid you not. So that guarantees that religious catholics will fail in the sex department and therefore, sin. Guilty parishioners are dependent on the clergy for absolution of their sins or else, hell. I think originally the sex teachings were techniques for increasing family size,therefore increasing the fold and revenues. The celibacy rule was to keep clergy in line and prevent them from leaving their property to their children My cynical view. Some protestant churches are more realistic about sex I guess. Just my opinion. I'm not wanting to offend any believers here. This is just my experience and opinions.

So, the bible doesn't say that sex is sinful if it's not for procreation?

TG

What about Abraham seen "sporting" with his wife, Sarah? What about the Book Song of Solomon? Read the Bible yourself, and you'll find a great deal about the pleasures of sex in it, not to mention a fair bit about sex.

@Theme_Gasm, the double negatives in your previous post seem to mean that sex is sinful for procreation!
I think @Badger is correct. Those who have eyes to see will see.
The bible is also colored with the hangups and inadequacies of the writers and translators. E.g the Greek "kingdom of God" is a cultural translation of Jesus probable words "companions of empowerment" the meaning is almost the opposite. Jesus also did not seem to be "righteous" when confronted with girl caught having sex with a married man, Jesus reply seems more to say "dear, dear soul" he would have known she had no choice - like the prostitutes in the WA goldfields - they were owned by men for profit, suicide was the only way out but the means was denied them. I think we often read into the holy book what we want. The old cultures in which the bible has been written are quite foreign to us so if not careful our misunderstanding pulls us back from the evolutionary process of creation causing incredible confusion and pain. We see this happening in the Middle East at the moment.
Not many will agree with me. I do believe God is drawing us, kicking and screaming and having tantrums, into the future.

@isvara --- My intent in my line of questioning is meant to suggest that the bible determines that certain sexual acts ARE sinful, but perhaps the Catholic faith chooses to make all sexual activity sinful for the purpose of control and manipulation of the herd, and to help fill the coffers.

Rather, a more appropriate and mature interpretation of the Bible would not make sex completely sinful, even outside of procreation, for the purpose self-awareness and management of our own urges in a more constructive manner.

TG

If i remember right, commiting sin in the catholic faith is easily forgiven.

If you want your bible to say aneros is great, then write it yourself. Otherwise, the book's the book, learn from it or discard it. It isn't that complex... Or am I missing the point?

@Theme_Gasm, yes I agree with your last post. I have been quite annoying laterly, I think through my lack of progress and frustration. I suppose to some extent I have been trying to resolve the 'sin - sex' relationship which is self induced as it was not part of my parents influence. I think it stems from my confused teenage years. Thank you for your patience.

@isvara, from I learned from Sermons and Bible-Study on this story, the one salient point made was, "where's the guilty husband?" The Pharisees and Sadducees were only persecuting the woman, and the man was nowhere to be found. This was a violation of the O.T., which clearly states that BOTH the man and the woman committing adultery must be stoned. The whole thing was a setup by the hypocrites running the temple, who were trying to trip up Jesus, so they could have him killed. I suppose maybe one of the Pharisees or Sadducees was given a 'free ride' so they could catch a woman 'in flagrante delicto'.

On a side note, it would've been fascinating to see just what Jesus wrote in the dirt. I suspect it was the secret sins of the Pharisees and Sadducees, which is why they all dropped their rocks and went home.