Hey Kazama,

Your praises are very appreciated.


Totally, BUT

---

First I have to ask a couple of question back: what did you already read? Most importantly, did you read my entry in the "My First Super-O"-Thread? Have you seen the youtube videos about the pelvic anatomy? Basicly. the muscles shown there, can be controlled. In the post I explained how I learned to control them one by one. How far is your progress (can you control certain muscles already)?

Identifying is rather tricky and I myself am not 100% sure if I got every muscle right. By touch, you can only feel/identify the superficial muscles, which are (unfortunately) the not so interesting ones. Identifying by sensation is do-able I guess. But I would need to make my mind up about it and write down how (and where) the muscles feel when clenched.


This one is easy. After you learned to control different muscles you intuitively start to move them individually and not all at once. When you have the aneros inserted you don't have to mind about which muscle to clench but only on what feels good. The "steering" of the aneros via different muscle-pulls happens more or less intuitively. Like you don't think about which muscle to clench in your arm in which order to move it and grab something. You'll just do it by following the sensations the movements produce. A certain clench/movement felt good? Repeat it and work the sweetspot you just found.

More important than the ability to steer is the ability to feel. That is why learning the muscles is so beneficial. In order to get them disentangled, you (automaticly) learn to feel precisely what's going on. In the end, this ability to feel is what it's all about.

The last utilization (after mastering steering and feeling) you have to find (any) two muscles and clench both in order to start a tug of war. Some muscles pull in somewhat opposing directions and when both are clenched, they produce an unstable situation regarding which muslce "wins" by pulling the tissue in it's direction. When the muscle fatigue, the imbalance sparks involuntaries and (with luck) a rapidly escalating arousal feedback loop. I don't use this method very often consciously, because I can spark sensations in my nervous system at will anyway (this would be the next step: not relying on musclework to start sensations).

---

So my plan would be to give you a muscle map and describe the sensations I have, when in clench these muscles. So that you can compare that with you sensations.

Do you have any specific questions already?



Cheers, Unfug

Thanks for the response Unfug

No shit I think I've read every one of your posts from the last year and a half, plus your first super O-thread
"I would like to go into detail and share all the things I learned about the pelvic floor but this would blow up this post to much" and that was a few years ago man! Blow it up lol
Watched the videos multiple times too, while very educational it was hard to tell which have to move as a group or which are involuntary. If you say all those can be controlled, I believe you (Maaaan ive got loads more to learn, it's exciting)

I thought I could control two muscles not including the sphincter, but in the last few days realised that there is at least three I had some level of control over. All of those can be felt externally. Bulbospongiosus? Ischiocavernosus? and something else around the sphincter (But thats very much a guess name wise).

Im glad to hear our attitude to putting this additional control into practice is a similar 'steering'. Practice moving muscles in various ways to identify sensation within them while simultaniously building muscle memory so that, in sessions, its not too distracting to perform those movements, doesnt take conscious brain power. That it increases blood flow too, win win win win.

Think some people view having this level of control as a potential distraction or breaking the mystery surrounding whats going on. But...cmooon really!? It still feels like crazy magic even if you understand what your body is doing.

"So my plan would be to give you a muscle map and describe the sensations I have, when I clench these muscles. So that you can compare that with you sensations"
That a great plan! Hopefully so ANYONE can compare to your sensations and have a bench mark to reach for while expanding their repertoire.

Specific questions already? Ummm. How many pelvic floor muscles do you currently have control over? How long did it take you to reach that stage? Are fatigue based involuntaries overrated? When i first learned they weren't neccesary it was a godsend, as it takes longer and longer to reach that point of fatigue!

There's plenty of stuff you've written in response to various kegel questions that if pulled into one big (easily accessible) post would blow most guys minds heheh. Plus it would help further dispell that 'One big PC muscle' myth.



P.S.
Might be worth stating for newbs that this is advanced stuff that isn't 'needed'....If you post. But is certainly facinating, plus a worthy goal.


Kaz

Hey Kaz,

I'm at work today, so the next detailed answer will come not before tomorrow. I'd like to keep things in this conversation for now, so I don't have to mind about form and can explain things one at a time. When we are done and you have no further questions, I will take all the stuff we talked about and bundle it into a solid tutorial-post.

Cheers, Unfug

No worries Unfug, take all the time you need.
Your logic, getting everything straight before posting, is sound.

Hey Kaz,



Sounds plausible. The Bulbospongiosus is rather large and was one of the first muscles that I could seperate. It covers the lower part of the penis, which doesn't end at the pubis but goes beyond the testicles almost to the anus. Most of the perineum area is actually the base of the penis. You can see this quite well in the picture below. Clenching the Bulbospongiosus feels like pulling upwards into the body (proximal).


The Ischiocavernosus slings around the upper base of the penis (that's often not shown due to the perspective of most anatomical pics). When you clench it, it acts like a natural cock ring and you feel it pulling the base of the penis towards your anus/back (dorsal). It pinches off bloodflow and is responsible for the "penis-wiggle".

This is most likely the superficial traversus (it lies right in front of the anus). Clenching it feels like a mixture of pulling upwards (proximal) and backwards (dorsal) to the anus. Right above (proximal) the superficial traversus lies the deep traversus. These two are exciting, since they connect the delicate anal tissue with the deeper prostate-tissue. Plus these are good candidates for tug-of-war approaches.

Look at the picture again and find the spot marked as "perineal body". IMHO that's the P-Spot where the P-Tab should sit on (in reality the P-Tab sits further upwards). There is a gap of muscle which makes it possible reach deep with pressure hence to massage the prostate externally. You can feel this gap and the traversus quite well with your fingers. It's rather close to the anus - maybe the width of one finger .If you own a Syn-Model with the bendy P-Tab, you may try to (bend and) position it there and see what happens.



Hm, around 10-ish. 4 of the levator ani group (will talk about them next time), the 3 superficial ones we just discussed, 2 anal ones, the deep traversus and one that is connected to the ballsack. I'm still learning that last one. Might be the cremaster, but that's a smooth muscle which shouldn't be able to be controlled, so maybe something else nearby.


3 months, but it took 6 months until complete mastery (getting it right one time vs. not getting it wrong at all). The first stage of separation (where you are now) was after a few weeks. Maybe 4-6 weeks?

Depends on who you ask. From my point of view: yes overrated, but it's tricky.

Firstly:
You can spark involuntaries without fatigue. When you have a traditional orgasm, your muscles contract in the very same manner and it's not due to fatigue. When you get better at letting your arousal flow, involuntaries come quite naturally. Woman start to contract early as well: when they enter the plateau phase and start the ascend! That's how you can tell if your tongue/finger game is spot on . So what you need to get involuntaries is not more muscle action to reach fatigue, but rather relaxation and a teeny-tiny clench to spark things.

Secondly:
Involuntaries are more a symptom than a trigger. If they act as a trigger, it's mental in 90% of the cases, because they can be very assuring for the user (and tantric energy orgasms are a 100% mental game). Of course involuntaries are the fuel for massager movement, BUT deriving pleasure from your prostate is more about getting the feelings to you brain than hammering the prostate with sensations. If hammering and feeling comes together, it makes for outstanding Super-O's though. Especially when the massager seems to have is own mind and you can really surrender to it (again, mental game: surrendering is a strong lever, that's why things like BDSM exist).

Still, I had many of my strongest Orgasms with little to no massager movement.


Phew, I wrote more than I planned.
Next time I will cover the stars of the pelvic floor: the levator ani (often oversimplified as PC-muscle).

Ah, the picture didn't work

Picture did work the second time then!

All the muscles are matching up so far. Less sure on the superficial traversus, but i don't have very good control there so...
Looking at the diagram, there are only so many external muscles, it fits.

Is "penis-wiggle" a technical term :P
Intriguing that most simple guides to PC clenching will say, "if your cock jumps, you got the right one". When in reality its the Ischiocavernosus doing most of that, which is only there for stability. MYTH BUSTED.

Found the 'perineal body' spot. Really is a lot closer that any models p-tabs. Can feel that same trickling feeling, like cold water webbing about inside. Get it when prodding 4" above the penis, which I figure is also an external prostate massage.

You can control 10!! Thats epic, you crazy ninja. No wonder it feels so good. Even with the little I've learnt in the last few weeks unclenching suddenly feels like a complex yet powerful flower unfurling.
Full mastery in 6 months still seems pretty fast! I'll take the timescale with a pinch of salt, slow learner n'all that.
Honestly, having something to learn and focus on is gonna help me not give up on Aneros. Time be damned.


When involuntaries come knocking on my door they will be arriving at the orgasm party, not coming to say there's a party next door.
Get what you mean about them being assuring (Had them before, just not from a prostate massager) make you to let go of that last bit of control just at the right time like "Oooooh shit here we go!" rollercoaster moment.

XD Tune in next week for the stars of the pelvic floor: THE LEVATOR ANI! wooooo tssss

Thanks so much for this, and take your time with the next broadcast.

Just a quick update.
Progress is going well, the muscles I can control now stay relaxed even when doing strong contractions with their brethren.
Shooting for deep traversus control in the next few weeks, then I can have a play with that specific tug-o-war you mentioned.

Hey Kaz,

Nice, stay up with the training and you will be playing your muscles like the piano

Sry I keep you waiting with the next post, last weeks were quite busy

I'll start tomorrow after work - maybe...

Cheers Unfug, I'll keep at it.

And don't worry, I've been busy too, such is life
Worth waiting for!

Hey Kaz,


So let's talk about the levator ani muscles today.


The levator ani are the heart and soul of the pelvic muscles. They are usually oversimplified and refered to as the PC-muscle. PC stands for PuboCoccygeus, which just describes the place where it sits: between the pubis and the coccyx. The muscle group consists of 4 muscles with the PC being the biggest, longest and most outer one. I guess that's why most people only gain control over the PC and stop there w/o noticing, that there are more distinct levels of control possible. So they think, the PC is all there is. Surprise: it's not.

The whole group looks like a tuning-fork which has a curve because it was overrun by a steamroller. Here is a [picture]:




For some reason, in this version of the anatomy app, the LP is shown as part of the PR. God knows why...


Levator means lifter and that's pretty much what these muscles do: they lift tissue (mostly upwards). From back to front the muscles of the group are:

• anococcygeal ligament (AL, anus-coccyx )
• pubococcygeus (PC, pubis-coccyx)
• puborectalis (PR, pubis-rectum)
• levator prostatae (LP, prostate lifter / pubis-prostate)

The AL connects the whole group to the coccyx and pulls back towards the spine (dorsal). It also pulls upwards (cranial). It feels like someone slightly touches/fondles the frontside of your spine from the inside in an upward motion.

The PC pulls everything towards the front and is able to apply a good amount of (rather broad) pressure on the prostate. I feel it pulling to the front (ventral) and also downwards (caudal), which makes sense when you see the next picture.

The PR and LP seem to be just smaller versions of the PC which pull smaller areas of tissue but there is more to them.

The PR slings around the rectum and compresses it when clenched. It's motion feels like it only slightly pulls to the front but mostly upwards (in contrast to the PC).

the LP slings around the urethra and prostate. When clenched, it also feels like an upward (cranial) and almost backwards (dorsal) pull. It feels *very similar* to the bulbospongiosus but just a few inches more up. (They seem to be on the same height on the dorsal-ventral-axis.)

So, why do they all feel so different, when they basically pull in the same direction? Because the whole group is bent like a bowl. So each muscle has it's own axis! Next [picture]:





Ok, so how can we benefit from the individual control of the levator ani group?

First of all: relaxation!
If you are able to control the muscles, you will be able to recognize involuntary contractions and thus be able to properly relax the muscles when needed. This is mostly of value when you play with bigger dildos (mastering/passing the bend between rectum and sigmoid) and when you learn to re-wire your penis. But also for classic aneros play: since the PC is the strongest of the four, it can easily overpower the others and kill all subtle sensations from them. Also the PC plays a role in classic ejaculatory response. That's why I used it way to much as a beginner. During aneros-sessions, I usually just try to keep the PC relaxed, so it doesn't interfere.

Secondly: maneuvering.
This is especially true for the PR. When you have something inserted, you can pull it upwards with the PR, so aneros (or any other plug) slides smoothly along the axis of the rectum and strokes the prostate lightly but distingtly (just like penetrative sex I guess). It works *very well* in combination with the (shallow and) deep traversus which lies on the other (front/anterior) side of the rectum. The deep traversus does almost the same thing like the PR, just from the other side and in the other direction - the perfect antagonist.
The PC will pull the aneros vertically to the rectum-axis and squeeze it right on the prostate - full frontal. So it results in a pressing motion. To much of that easily numbs everything down.
The LP somehow lifts the prostate, so it's pressed against the aneros from the underside. Esp. hook-like designs (the top bulge of the aneros) will build up an opposing pressure from above. Since the LP is rather weak, there is little chance of overdoing it. So numbing is unlikely. The LP applies little but pointy pressure, so it can spark nice feelings in the prostate on it's own.
The AL can't pull the aneros, since it's pulling to the back and the muslce slings of the other three muscles are open to the front. But it's very good in other regards.


[next time]
Thirdly: tug of war: sparking sensations and involuntaries
Fourthly: lightning rod: re-directing and accumulating arousal


I hope the embedding of my uploaded pictures work...


Cheers, Unfug

Of course it did not...

Ahh, only jpg's allowed...


The levator ani group for your viewing pleasure:


Pulling directions:

Woooo yes, part 2.
You deserve a medal for this.... and a straitjacket to pin it on. Mad genius.

The descriptions of how each muscle moves the Aneros around are useful in particular. I've been making some of these movements without realising. No individual control yet, it's like wiggling all your fingers at once then trying to stop just one. But at least I know where all my fingers are now, my ass, I can focus on using just one rather than the whole fist up there. (Hows that for a metaphor :P)

Funny you should mention relaxing for longer toys. Several years ago when I was into them, could definitely do that. Realised walking further down that path would probably only win me a Darwin award so I stopped. But perhaps some of the muscle memory can be awoken by simply imagining that particular need to relax.
At any rate, several other people on the forum will certainly be able to use that as a starting point for more refined control, if you know what I mean

Well hot damn, there's two more parts! I'll have to renew my subscription to Unfugfernsehen.

Ahahahaa, almost asking for cruel irony there mate.

"Cheers", Kaz

Hey Kaz,

I changed the order of these subsections because that makes more sense to me now.


Thirdly: lightning rod: re-directing, accumulating and channeling arousal

You may have seen my entries in the penis re-wiring thread. I found, that holding a subtle isolated clench can re-route the arousal that's build somewhere else. So when you try to masturbate your penis to a dry orgasm, you can clench any pelvic muscle that's has no strong reflex regarding ejaculation response (that rules out the PC, the Ischiocavernosus and maybe the Bulbospongiosus). Good candidates are: AL, PR, LP, shallow & deep traversus and the anal sphincter(s). By clenching any of these muscles you can draw arousal to them and try to build it there. Imagine a steam-engine where the piston is the penis generating power and the flywheel is the isolated muscle which stores and accumulates the energy.

This is true for A-less as well with the difference, that the regarding muscle is the piston and the flywheel rolled into one. Or a combination of muscles that take these roles for each other. Which brings us to the next point:


Fourthly: tug of war: sparking sensations and involuntaries

So let's keep using the lightning rod/steam-engine logic. What happens when you clench two muscles? You may visualize that one muscle acts as the piston and the other as flywheel. Now we take it a step further: both are the piston and flywheel for each other in turns.

When you work two muscles against each other in a tug-of-war situation, little imbalance while result in a flutter which can stabilize in a rolling forth-and-back motion. That itself must not be arousing. In the milestone list of the wiki are several (generic xy-)milestones listed, which have to stages:

• definite xy without pleasure
• definite xy with pleasure

What brings the pleasure into the equation is the ability to draw and channel arousal (last point). The muscles are a good start for drawing arousal because they are places where nerves accumulate. We tend to have nerves where it makes sense to actually sense something. Like in our skin. But our insides are seldomely used to scan the outside world. That's why it's so easy to hurt oneself with rough anal sex. The tissue of the rectum can't feel so much but pressure and stretching (that's all what's needed for pooping).

Our muscles on the other hand need a basic supply of nerves, so that we can use them at will and recognize/feel the strength we are holding and the fatigue level. Accumulating arousal in your muscles means to make use of the feedback nerves in your muscles. And that's why mastering your muscles control is so valuable. Because you will also gain control over the nerves designated for giving feedback to you brain.

I digressed. So tug-of-war means using two muscles that pull on the same tissue in different directions. Here are some pairings:

• Bulbospongiosus (BS) - shallow traversus (ST)
• deep traversus (DT) - Puborectalis (PR)
• anococcygeal ligament (AL) - levator prostatae (LP)
• outer anal sphincter - more inner outer anal sphincter (the notorious "auto-fuck")

I just recently learned that there may be 4(!) seperate anal sphincters , so I'll cover that in detail next time!

The trick with tug-of-war approaches is IMHO, not to try tiring them out by applying heavy force, but to clench them lightly and try to find the point where they are both equal in strenght. Since it's a unstable balance (2 in the picture), one muscle will dominate in the beginning and your job is to slowly raise the power in the weaker one.



Once you found the balance point, just try to hold it without using more force, but only by balancing the force levels of both muscles. That's set up to fail in the long run, but our actually goal is to make it fail anyway. When you lose the balance, the "losing" muscle will overcompensate resulting in a brief "win". That in turn will make the other muscle overcompensate and voilá... a rhythmic forth-and-back motion.

If you mastered arousal-channeling before, this rolling forth-and-back will fuel an arousal feedback-loop which can escalate quite quickly into an orgasm. If there is no arousal-channeling going on, you'll end up with some "definite xy without pleasure".


Next time (presumably): Anal Sphincter Wonderland

Jesus, the editor showed me the preview pic... goddamnit...

here is a direct link just in case.

Okay maybe I took the wrong address. Next try:

http://file.scirp.org/Html/8-8302023...34f5ae8f5f.jpg




Btw, why is it, that you can't edit your posts here like you can in regular forum posts?

Hey Unfug,

I had always thought of channeling arousal as a technique for pushing an MMO to a full body orgasm, something meant for very advanced users (often talked about with cryptic chi kundalini awakening). Whereas "tug of war" seemed accecible with just basic levels of muscle control.

But on reading lightning rod, I get the reason for rearraging the order. Tug o war will not be nearly as effective without the skill to redirect arousal. Plus it doesn't have to be a huge orgasm your're channeling, only arousal. Frankly it's a more useful skill, period. Though one thats still relatively new to me.

Overjoyed, again, that your approach to getting an imbalace between muscles isn't based on fatigue.
The suggestions for muscle pairings are great too. "Which fine wine would go well with my marinaded shallow traversus?" ...."May I reccomend the 1964 red Bulbospongiosus sir"

It's weird right!? You'd think it would have been easier to have made the message system exatly the same as the general forum.

Do you add all the pictures here by URL? I'm having trouble uploading from my harddrive.

Looking forward to the next (final?) part. They all sound like rides in 'anotomy park', or fan made Harry Potter sequels ahahaa.
Got plenty of things to be learning already! Gonna have a year's worth of well explained orgasmic goals layed out ahead soon , wouldn't have it any other way.

Hey Kaz,

It's not complicated and just one step further compared to channeling through muscle-nerves. Kundalini is just a visualization, I summarized here but you don't need it for starters. The key concept to understand chakras and stuff is, that you can channel arousal not only by clenching your muscles but with mere thought! See, when you use channeling techniques you build up nerval excitement hence arousal. You can do that as well by only thinking about it respectively concentrating on a spot in your body. Tantrists say "Where the mind goes the chi follows". Chi and Chakras (basins for Chi) are, again, just visualizations for your nervous system. A chakra is a bigger (or sensitive) cluster of nerves (like the prostate, which is a Chakra too). And moving Chi (sensations you can feel) is just an excited branch of nerves which was stimulated to respond with the signal: "Hey brain, there are sensations happening at my place".

So what you do is, you concentrate on a place (maybe the prostate since you are already familiar with it), imagine how it starts to feel something and listen for any sensations. It's basically the do-nothing approach but without the touching sensation of the aneros (which is only there to help spark things).


Exactly! Most of my "everyday" orgasms are rather little ones due to the little amounts of arousal I channel. Mini-O's so to say. Full blown Super-O's are rather seldom. Building large amounts of arousal before slipping into orgasm and keeping building arousal while orgasming (expanding orgasm) is a skill on it's own which I still have to master.

I guess that's also a hormonal and nutritional balance thing. zaneblue once shared her diet she prescribe women to gain the ability to have vaginal orgasms. She recommended large amounts of fish oil / omega-3 fatty acids.


Some be URL, but the pics from the lavator ani post are uploaded. There is an "upload" tab you can use for local pictures. But make sure you use jpg's.


There will be more parts:

• anal muscles
• reverse kegels (mostly misunderstood in the forum if you ask me)
• cremaster & testicle orgasms (yes this is a thing, just learned that recently )
• thoughts about the deep traversus (it looks different in the anatomy map than I expected)

But as I write, normally new thoughts pop up, so you will have to bear with me for a little while.

Sorry, Ive had very limited internet for a while.

Thank you for clarifying
That's my take on all this too (though I probably wouldn't have put it so eloquently heheh)
Building sensations from thought alone feels magical, combined with the fact that imagining energy moving around your body works BRILLIANTLY to help visualization, It's no wonder people years ago came to see all this as a spiritual rather than physical process. Hell, if approaching orgasm from a 'Chi' point of view didn't work, the practice probably would have died out.

I've read zaneblue's old diet posts, cheers for bringing it back to my attention. My diet is low in omega-3 (price of living with hipster vegans), so once I'm getting more consistent Mini-Os I'll try it. Maybe push me over into that endorphin cascade "like stepping in a big, cozy bathtub full of heroin"

As much as I want you to post all this on the forum for everyone, It's pretty friggin awesome having this wealth of knowledge for my eyes only hahaa.
So again, take your sweet time mate

I stupidly scratched (cut) the inside of my ass with an unfiled nail the other week. It'll heal but aneros sessions are a no go for a while. Luckily I have other muscle control goals in mind

Given any more thought to packaging all this info for mass consumption Unfug? It's great stuff!

Hey Kaz,

sorry I didn’t write for so long. Busy life… but I swear, half of this post was written already.

So today a quicky about Reverse Kegels. I got the feeling, that they are not fully understood by most guys in the forum and here is why.

When the PC is explained for newbies it’s often done with the “hold-pee”-technique. Reverse Kegels in contrast are taught with “bear-down” like when you have a bowel-movement. So the two apparently work in opposite directions. Many seem to think, that it’s the very same muscles at work, as if they can pull and push. Likepistons in a digger. But that’s not how muscles work, they can only pull. That’s why they alway come in pairs at hinge joints in our body (like the knee or elbow) - one flexor and one extensor (and even more at ball joints like the hips and shoulders).

The reverse kegel has to be some different muscle, so which one is it? It’s the midriff, which isn’t even located in the pelvis. So in my book, the term reverse kegel is an unlucky choice.

How does it work? The midriff is our main breathing muscle (beside the ones in the ribcage). It separates the upper and the lower torso and pulls caudal to the ground. Since it seals of both parts of your inner torso, it creates a vacuum in the lungs (hence the airflow in) and a compression of your lower intestines. That’s why your belly expands and it feels like you were breathing into it literally. You are not, your are just compressing everything in your lower belly. And that’s the trick already. By breathing in, you put pressure on the delicate tissue we are working with.

Now imagine yourself on the toilet with mild constipation and bearing down - what’s actually happening? You will most likely take a deep breath and hold it while flexing your abs. By taking a deep breath in first you compress the lower cavity as much as possible. By holding your breath you lock the midriff in position, hence keeping the pressure up. If you would just inhale your belly expands in all directions, so you instinctively flex the abs to direct the pressure further down. And that’s it: a lot of inner pressure that pushes on your pelvic floor and helps pushing stuff out.


Application:

Conscious deep breathing is often emphasised here in the forum and for a good reason. Every deep breath is like a Mini-Reverse-Kegel, that stimulates the prostate from above. It also highly stimulates the belly nerves which is the key mechanism for Jack Johnstons Key-Sound-Protocol (imo, the key sound is 3/4 for getting the breathing and abs-flex right and just 1/4 a stimulus on it's own).

So what I like to do at times is a moaning-deep-breath-out-reverse-kegel while holding a the PR and/or the LP. In the right mood, this can trigger an intense pleasure wave. The practical thing about this is, that you don't have to wait for a spontaneous p-wave, but trigger the waves with your breath when you feel like it. You shouldn't use every breath but every 2nd-4th.

You can listen in, how every p-wave subsides and sets the buildup for the next. Good visualizations for that are a swing or a surge. Picture when you feel like some kind of eddy water pulling back because there is a new wave coming in or the highest point on a swing when you feel weightless and the splitsecond when the pull begins. This is the time to start a new breath-out-reverse-kegel, which will swing higher than the last one (and may give you the same belly tingles but in a very sexual way). This may make itself independent quite quickly and you can just give in to what your body does to you.


Cheers, Unfug

Hi Unfug,

The application part of reverse kegels there is gold, video links too
Any visualization of water just clicks with me, something playful and ticklish about imagining trickling flows of energy, or powerful yet soothing while picturing the sea.

I was so sure I'd have misunderstood rev kegels, but your explanation of the muscles at work is akin to what ive already been doing thankfully. Glad to not have spread misinformation when mentioning them on the forums before.

Had never thought of those deep breaths as mini rev kegels, however it makes perfect sense. Yet another reason trained breathing works so well!

Do you think continued muscle training is neccesary for these? Or is it the kind of thing where once its clicked its clicked.
Also, do you think its worth practicing to be able to hold it throughout inhaling exhaling? Or better used intermittently on single breaths to produce p-waves?




Always a pleasure, Kaz

(My abs become the centre of all my best sessions, despite never trying KSMO, so I will definately be 'imagining the sea' soon)

Hm... not for strength, but controlwise a little training is never wrong. But if it clicked for you already, everytime you put your skill to use counts as training, so I wouldn't stress myself about it.


I actually never thought about this. You can do shallow breaths while your bellly keeps being expanded. Or hold the deep breath/belly expansion and continue breathing with the (upper) muscles of your ribcage. Just try it - experiment. I will do as well.


Depends on your approach. Like with the aneros you can try a hold approach where the arousal slides in one big accelerating slide. This is like one p-wave that is the only p-wave from start to finish. I usually hear a ringing in my ears with a raising pitch or visualize a sound doing this. We may call this the landslide-approach or sliding for future use.

Jacks approach and the more common thing to happen with the do-nothing approach is upswinging p-waves, which grow momentum with every succession (like the swing or surge/wave visualization).

I'd say upswinging is way more fool-proof because it's more natural. See, many women struggeling with reaching orgasm try to force things convulsively by keeping up then tension/clench and sometimes even cramp (hence, try to slide), but it doesn't work. One secret with the nerval orgasmic feedback loop is, that it's an oscillation. You need to alternate tension and relaxation. If you just keep up the tension it's like holding up the swing as high as you can but never letting it go to actually do some swinging.

A succesfull slide is "just" a very powerfull one-time upswing, where the first swing is enough to catapult you into the orgasmic response. I usually don't try this consciously but rather have them as lucky accidents in the middle of a session, in the middle of the day as part of a random everyday orgasm or during sleep.

Thanks Unfug,

Picturing the swing makes sense of it somewhat. Been practicing with the constant hold (if only to see how far i could take it). Its akin to just holding a swing up manually, high as you can. Theres a lot of stimulation to be had but you never reach the same heights. Honestly after about 20 minutes youre either numbing to the feeling or cramping.

However, if you can keep your lower abs strong, with the upper ones relaxed, then full deep breathing is still doable. Taken far too much practice separating these muscles mentally, if we're talking noticable improvements for time/effort spent, not worth it.

I'm going back to the leviator ani (the sweet sunny beaches of leviator)

Doing of this so far helps facilitate those random beautiful a-less moments incredibly. Must be the self awareness that comes from learning how to feel each group.

Hope youre well.

Kaz

Hey Kazama ,

sry I didn't write for so long. I'm pretty occupied with graduation before it's too late (I suck so hard at adulting).
Deadline is ahead and I'm hyper-stressed. That's why I won't write a longer text for the next 4-8 weeks, but I promise to continue after I got my diploma (cross fingers ).


Cheers, Unfug

Hi Unfug

Hahaha, adulting is hard maaaan.

Everything you've writting here needs to be shared on the main forum at some point! Ive made more progress from training based on this conversation, than every tip on the rest of the forum combined.

So thank you again! I hope graduation is going(/has gone) smoothly.

Anything more you have to say will be readily soaked up. But don't sweat it, life is stressful enough as it is.

Always a pleasure,
Kaz

Hey Kaz,

I hope you are still around. I just wanted to to say that I'm back now.

New wisdom will be coming (in a few days or so).



Cheers, Unfug

Hey Unfug,

Maaaan its been a while huh! I fell of the rails for a time.
Had my first session in months last night. Telling that the first place I visit afterwards is this specific chat
Luckily, those former months spent muscle training are not easily forgot.

Hope you still spend considerable amounts of time floating in a self induced orgasm cloud.

Kaz

Hey Kaz,

I'm glad you're back. That means I can get back to writing the next days...


It's a lifelong skill - like riding a bike.


More or less. It seems, like this comes in phases. There are some weeks, where I'm literally buzzing with energy and others where I don't. That affects the quality of orgasms as well. Sometimes I get specific strong ones and it's like I've almost forgotten how they can feel and just got some kind of deja vu. But that everlasting change of sensations is what keeps this journey from getting boring. "The only thing constant in life is change".

Unfug!

Glad to hear it.

Gonna be a little while before my butt is ready for the championship (cue montage), It'll get there though.

Your sage advice and humor will always be welcome.

OK, I wasn't gonna ask any more questions, butttt....
Do you think pelvic muscle identifying/training is easier with an Aneros inserted?
If so which model?

Eupho is a firm fav of mine and I still agree with your original My First Super-O post that you get more out of it with more refined control. It's smaller, nimbler and rewards small individual muscle movement rather that big clumsy ones.

When identifying leviator ani muscles, I had more success with the maximus. I knew the direction of movement to look for because of you, the size made the varying position noticable.

Then again, having nothing in encourages A-less.

Hey Kaz,

sry I planned to write something but I couldn't get myself motivated...

Is there a specific topic, that is of interest to you? Here is an update of the old list I once wrote:

• anal muscles (there is more than one anal sphincter)
• cremaster & testicle orgasms (rather complicated and not really worth the effort, but hey...)
• thoughts about the deep traversus (it looks different in the anatomy map than I expected)
• re-wiring the penis & multiorgasmic traditional partnered sex

Meh, hard to answer. My gut-feeling is no, but if it works for you, that's all that counts. Imho, with an Aneros inserted, you get distracted because you get sensation from touch of the Aneros (prostate and anal sphincter) while your actual goal is to detect the sensations in your muscles. It's like learning to juggle on a unicycle. It's possible, but it may be easier to learn juggling first, then step on the unicycle.

If you want to try it, I'd go with the models which are on the subtle end. So the Eupho or the Peridise.


Absolutely. The bigger ones advantage is, that they can apply more brute pressure. But to be able to derive pleasure from a lot of pressure, you need a well warmed up prostate. That's why I usually work my way up during a session from small sizes to bigger ones.


How did your A-less skills develop? Are you making progress?

Hi Unfug,
Thanks for the advice, I only have two full Aneros sessions a week right now (those two being better for the break), so continuing the search for increased awareness can proceed easily without a toy.

Specific topic? WHAT a menu! It all looks great chef
You carried on experimenting with the cremaster then? I'm intrigued, but you're right, best left for another, later, day.

I choose you "anal muscles". I've never got the auto-fuck from a peridise, so I'm curious how the internal/external sphincters differ. (As well as and deeper ones, just for knowledge's sake)

Second choice would be deep traversus, yet to master that, unless I'm confusing it with something else.

"re-wiring the penis & multiorgasmic traditional partnered sex" could have it's own thread tbh. I think a lot of guys would be interested in that alone, without comprehensive pelvic floor training. Even if said training would help t'wards said goal.

My progress seems unorthodox, which is about the only thing anyone could guarantee about A-less, hahaa.
I don't wake with a tingling prostate but have become acutely aware of muscle tension down there, along with the rest of my body. Relaxing/stretching out those small knots of resistance has become a new pleasure unto itself. Stretching out a foot during a long drive, for example, shoots trickling sensation up the calf. "Hot yoga" now has a dual meaning :P
For a while now there has been a spike in my pleasure upon inserting the Aneros when relaxed and aroused. This can be ridden for some time with a bit of luck. Five days ago the realization came that this spike in pleasure continues even if I immediately withdraw the aneros and leave it out for the rest of the night. Still need something as a trigger, but not much.

Another development of note. If I stop urinating mid-stream, there's a penile orgasm EVERY TIME about half the strength of a traditional penile orgasm. Between the interspersed sound of piss hitting toilet water and my barely stifled cries, there's probably a rumour at work that I have bladder stones XD

Not that this is helpful, but I think some of the leviator ani muscles can be felt externally as a directional tightening of the skin around the Coccyx. (right in the top or your ass cleft)

Hey Kaz,

Ok, let's get it rollin' ​

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So, the usual vanilla crash course on the anal canal / anal sphincter you can read everywhere (from proper sex books down to womens magazines) goes like this:

"You have 2 sphincters, one at the outside you can control at will and one on the inside you can't control. Since you can't control the inner one, you have to slow with anal play to give the inner sphincter time to relaxe and losen up.That's what butt-plugs are for."

That's not exactly wrong, but it's imprecise, like with the PC. And like with the PC, there is not just one inner & outer muscle, but muscle-groups. So far, I found 2 inner ones and 3(+1) outer ones, in which inner vs. outer are not the best way to group them. For this examination I would prefer to group them in 3 controlable (skeletal) vs. 3 uncontrolable (smooth) muscles. The reason is, that they overlap along the anal canal, so it's not very helpful speaking of inner and outer muscles.

Enough blabbering, here the are:

​

​

​ Note: Until a few days ago (when I started to prepare this post), I wasn't aware about the deep muscle. That's why I assume that I have it linked to / clench it parallel with the middle one, which I can address individually. I'll experiment with it in the future.


Ok, I'm a bit tired and call it a day. I'll see what comes to my mind in the next few days respectively, what I forgot to mention today.

Uhh, the pics are so small that one can't read the labels.

The muscles are called

• skeletal
  • outer: Subcutaneous (below the skin) part of the external anal sphincter
  • middle: Superficial part of the external anal sphincter
  • deep: Deep part of the external anal sphincter
• smooth
  • starfish: Corrugator cutis ani
  • somewhat inner: Conjoined longitunal anal sphincter
  • inner: Internal anal sphincter

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I made a nice gif showing all the muscles, but I bet my arm and leg, that including them here will fail miserably.

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I find this helpful - nice trick!


These are very good signs. Try to relax into these sensations through observing. They may not level off but build up into something more! See, I have these pleasure tingles too - often at random spots around my body. They can totally build up to orgasm.

There was a post in the forum lately where someone described how a certain posture/clench/movement in his feet would supercharge things for him. I thought to myself: this is nuts. Guess what, a few weeks later during a session, my feet started shaking during the afterglow of a Super-O. I let it happen and the shaking became a piston (remember earlier posts) which fueled the next orgasm.

You give the best homework
Even better than my remedial S&M teacher.

Bwahaha, one thing you can rely on, is that trying to post pics here is unreliable. I'll look up some pictures myself. Sure the gif will be helpful to all, if/when it ever displays correctly.

Thank you for the new goal and encouragement towards muscle tingles. It's great to be back on target

It seems, the pics, did not work at all. When I made the post, they were displayed but not anymore. Also, I upload a version with 600x900 pixel but they get downscaled a lot - this forum software is a pest at times. Here they are again.

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Rectum (just for scale). Note the thin end - that's the part that get's constricted by you anal sphincter system. It's quite long-ish, around 4 cm / 1,5 inches. That's why butt plugs should have a long neck between the bulb and the base.




Subcutaneous (below the skin) part of the external anal sphincter - the most outer sphincter (the one you are familiar with - hopefully)


Superficial part of the external anal sphincter - the middle sphincter


Deep part of the external anal sphincter - the deep sphincter


Internal anal sphincter: the inner uncontrolable sphincter (which makes anal sex painful for ignorant newbies since forever). Note how it depthwise overlaps with the superficial and deep external (controlable) sphincters.


Conjoined longitunal anal sphincter: Still have to figure out this one.



Corrugator cutis ani: It's not clear what these are for, but they are responsible for the crinkles and the starfish-look of the a-hole.

Much better.
Ta Unfug