Long-term anxiety

Posted by: @titoh

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I fully realize the obvious answer here is to take a break from both the weed and supers, but I've really struggled with it. Addiction runs in my family so it's in my DNA. It's extremely hard for me to quit things. I know taking a break of both things is what I need to do and I'm working towards that. I was just curious if anyone else has gone through a similar struggle.

Hi @TitoH, Welcome to the Aneros Forums. While smoking cannabis has generally been a well tolerated practice by many Aneros users, incidences of it producing anxiety at high dose levels is pretty well known (see Cannabis, a cause for anxiety?...). Cutting down your use may be a path forward to lowering your overall anxiety. As an alternative to taking SSRI's to reduce anxiety have you considered looking into microdosing magic mushrooms as an alternative treatment methodology? I've been microdosing mushrooms for its anti-depressive properties for a couple of years now and can attest to its effectiveness. There are be some desirable benefits from this approach and I encourage you really look into it. Please see he thread Reverse Engineering Psychedelic Experiences - How deep does the ribbit hole go? and my thread Microdosing & Aneros? for some details about this approach.

Fortunately, magic mushrooms are completely non-addictive, in fact they are considered a treatment option for overcoming addictions. It seems to me it may be an effective treatment for your situation and fortunately there are now two states (Oregon & Colorado) where such therapeutic treatment is legally available, it may also be available wherever you are located from underground therapists.

Good Vibes to You!

@rumel

Hey there, I appreciate your reply! Interesting about the microdosing of mushrooms. I'll look into that more. I'm in oregon : )

I know what you mean about the weed-super-o's, they're hard to forget. I did about 3 years of stoned sessions (averaging about twice per week), and coming back to normal sessions hasn't been that much fun. But the hair-trigger fight-or-flight and hypervigilance weren't any fun either.

I focus on appreciating the small improvements, because there are a lot of things about smoking weed that I don't enjoy. By day 4 I feel less foggy, by about week 3 I'm able to think of words better when speaking, by about month 2 my internal monologue seems faster, and so on. I feel like my anxiety isn't as run-away as it was. Fewer feelings of non-specific paranoia. I can concentrate better.

I've been still caving in to temptation every few months and having a stoned session... because the depressing factors in life get on top of me, and I think "Screw it, why shouldn't I enjoy myself?". But then it's right back to quitting the next day. But even still, this amounts to a much lower frequency overall, and that lower frequency feels better. I'm not immune to addiction either, I've smoked cigarettes for many years and find quitting unbearable. I'm just glad weed didn't get its hooks into me like that.

It's not even the weed I miss, it's just the orgasms, and those can be gotten in other ways. In my sobriety, I've gotten more interested in other avenues, like erotic audio, Mindgasm, nipple play, and experimenting with abstinence. Nothing makes me miss weed more than lying there having a dud aneros session... so I reduced the number of sessions I have.
I find sober aneros sessions get better again after some months, but the first few sober months after regular weed smoking were frustrating. Not only was the enhancement effect of weed gone, but I had forgotten how to even get into the riding mindset I used to have.

Eh, anyway... I don't have much in the way of advice, just sharing.

Despite what a lot of people say, marijuana is linked to causing anxiety.  Not only that but it depends on the strain you're using.  Someone I know can smoke one strain and laugh for a few hours, and another strain will cause him to have anxiety, and paranoia for a few hours.  

Some people do appear to be able to calm down an anxiety condition while using it, however from the studies I've heard of, anxiety and depression can be made worse by regular marijuana usage. 

Posted by: @justcurious12431

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Some people do appear to be able to calm down an anxiety condition while using it, however from the studies I've heard of, anxiety and depression can be made worse by regular marijuana usage. 

Yeah it probably works great for anxiety if you stay stoned all day, every day. And some people do that... which is why I take with a grain of salt half of the talk I hear about weed online. Some people only want to hear good things about their weed addiction, reject everything else, then proselytize about how great and natural it all is.

IMO every weed smoker owes it to themselves to watch this episode of Huberman Labs, where he gets into the facts of the neurobiology of weed smoking. Also watch the episode about dopamine.

I think you're right to lay off the weed, and aneros play.  Just take a few months off, see how you feel.  Also I'd suggest getting the book Hope and help for your nerves by Claire Weekes.  It's a really great book that has helped thousands, myself included.  It got me through some of the worst times.  You could talk to your doctor about the SSRI.  You can switch meds to see if it helps with the sexual dysfunction.  I also use an SSRI but I still get amazing erections, and great orgasms. 

Speaking personally I’ve suffered for 50 years off and on from anxiety attacks. Some awful. Mostly mild. But I came to the conclusion…..cut down on coffee. I noticed a clear correlation between caffeine consumption and my panic attacks. I regularly now only have one or two max a day and the problem has disappeared. 

Posted by: @titoh

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I feel like once I started smoking weed and having supers, I opened the gates of hell which can never be closed again. I love supers to the point where I'm addicted to it (if I'm being honest with myself). 

You need to quit weed. Period. That's the only thing that will close the gates at this point. You can still enjoy sober Super-Os responsibly later on but it might take a while before you can make them happen. If you can quit the weed and the anxiety goes away, then you might be able to stop the meds (obviously, with your doctor's approval) and then you will be able to rebuild your Super-O abilities and sex life in general. If you cannot quit cannabis cold turkey, then it might be possible to pivot to strains that are less effective for you orgasm-wise, which will give your brain a small break, then it *should* be easier to quit. 

My own experience is that it won't stop on its own until you hit some kind of Super-O rock bottom, which is a place you don't want to visit at all. You can PM me if you want to chat about it, I might have some advice for you. Don't give up ! 

Personally for me I smoked weed for around 12 years and I always did want to quit in some ways but others I didn't. It's 100% addictive I know that for sure as I'd get extremely agitated if I didn't have it and have terrible struggle sleeping at night. 

It actually took a terrible event for me to stop smoking it. I was going through a challenging period in life and my weed consumption was fairly heavy. Weed itself was predominately relaxing, though I began dabbling with extracts. I smoked a dab and ended up having a panic attack which was so bad I literally continued having them for days and could not sleep for around 3 days solid. 

I no longer smoke it and still experience anxiety in certain situations, but what I can say is that the strength it took to come out of that has led me on an awesome path of self discovery. 

I think just reduce things gradually and don't fall into the trap of identifying with things. For example, "my anxiety", or "i have addictive personality", "my family were addicts". Once you identify, you embody it.

Also yeah ssri were a complete libido destoyer. I could have sex for hours with no sensation in my penis. Women love it of course but I literally felt nothing.

I can't account for experience of smoking with the aneros as I have began this journey after quitting. 

Posted by: @lee92

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Personally for me I smoked weed for around 12 years and I always did want to quit in some ways but others I didn't. It's 100% addictive I know that for sure as I'd get extremely agitated if I didn't have it and have terrible struggle sleeping at night.

Congrats for getting off it after 12 years.
I think anything that fires off our reward circuits in a big way can be addictive. Just because it's not "physically addictive", doesn't mean there is no withdrawal. I've spent some time reading https://old.reddit.com/r/leaves/ and people really do have a rough time quitting weed. Not that I spend much time there, I'm happier to just forget weed exists entirely, rather than dwelling on it, but I think it's a good resource for anyone curious, or in the early stages of quitting.
Now if I could just quit nicotine, that'd be a trick.

Posted by: @zentai

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My own experience is that it won't stop on its own until you hit some kind of Super-O rock bottom, which is a place you don't want to visit at all. You can PM me if you want to chat about it, I might have some advice for you. Don't give up !

I had a different path. I didn't hit a super-o rock bottom personally, I just had my weed supply dry-up, and decided it was probably for the better anyway. I guess my rock bottom was a slow-roll of living with a shit mental state for a few years, at a time I least needed it. I still consider the super-o's fantastic, but the price of entry isn't one I want to pay anymore. I consider weed smoking to be a downward spiral for me. And not smoking to be an upward trajectory. Since I quit regular weed smoking, I've regained the motivation to exercise, and things like that have compounding benefits.

I can attest to PM'ing Zentai though, we've had some great conversations. 🙂

@clenchy 

You're absolutely right about the price of entry, in some cases it can be a Faustian bargain, you pay for the pleasure in some way, time, energy, mental state.

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Although I can't say that it was all negatives, for sure I would be in a different place today if I had never touched weed or at least, stopped early. I went from absolutely zero interest in trying cannabis, to daily use in a very short while.

I knew things were worsening only 3 months in, and that was in late 2019. Now I'm doing better, but it took a long while and several 2-3 month breaks to accept that I cannot just do it once. It's not about being unable to stop, it's not wanting to stop that is scary. Each time I quit was total anhedonia for weeks on end, then a very slow climb from down the pit.

To me there's a somewhat logical explanation outside the purely neurochemical one : For me, the highs from the THC-improved Super-Os are just too high, and no achievement in normal life can compete. So what am I going to pick each time ? The real world or the dream world ? This is a hard loop to escape from... 

@clenchy yeah it was super hard. I think I quit nicotine 2 weeks later which was also super hard but I was going through such a rough time that it didn't make that much difference because I felt bad regardless.

In terms of cigarettes I don't miss that at all. I don't ever think of weed though I do think it would be nice if I could have it occasionally as there are some things I miss. Although, I am fearful now because of my experience both in terms of addiction and anxiety. 

It's great if used sensibly, but I didnt use it sensibly. 

Too much of anything isn't good for you really. 

Sounds like weed could very well be causing anxiety. If and when you get off lexapro make sure you wean yourself off to minimize PSSD (post SSRI sexual distinction). Was your super O affected by ssris?

Posted by: @zentai

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You're absolutely right about the price of entry, in some cases it can be a Faustian bargain, you pay for the pleasure in some way, time, energy, mental state

I think of it the same way, I'm just borrowing pleasure from my future self, and it will all be paid back with interest. There are no free lunches.

Posted by: @zentai

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I went from absolutely zero interest in trying cannabis, to daily use in a very short while

I feel lucky to have dodged that bullet. I learned very early on that smoking 3 days in a row made me feel horrible... so I spaced it out and put recovery days in between every session. I think that made it easier.

Posted by: @zentai

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To me there's a somewhat logical explanation outside the purely neurochemical one : For me, the highs from the THC-improved Super-Os are just too high, and no achievement in normal life can compete. So what am I going to pick each time ? The real world or the dream world ? This is a hard loop to escape from...

I mean, that does still tie in with the neurobiology side... since your brain adjusts to the increased dopamine, and becomes less excited by normal things. The baseline is fucked up like that until it recovers.
Though I agree over the longer term, I can't forget how good it feels when I zonk-out after a bong hit. It makes me feel for heroin addicts... I've no idea how good heroin feels, but there are people out there who have to live with that knowledge, and I don't envy them.
But that I even talk about my weed use in those terms makes me think I made the right choice getting out. Though it isn't even just a weed high, it's a turbo-charged sexual experience in someone who was already sensitized to prostate stimulation... so who even knows how that dopamine-spike measures up against the more destructive drugs.

Posted by: @clenchy

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I feel lucky to have dodged that bullet. I learned very early on that smoking 3 days in a row made me feel horrible... so I spaced it out and put recovery days in between every session. I think that made it easier.

At first I had some rules for myself, I was writing everything down "for science",  but very soon they became elastic until I was smoking every night. I could do this because I had decided to take a sabbatical, then COVID restriction happened and I could not do anything I had planned and I was stuck home... I still cannot believe this is what I decided to do with all that free time.

I also feel terrible after 3 days in a row, but the daily session made it worth it in some twisted way. I felt like all the pleasure and joy I had missed in life was finally in reach, which should have been a fair warning.

Posted by: @clenchy

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I mean, that does still tie in with the neurobiology side... since your brain adjusts to the increased dopamine, and becomes less excited by normal things. The baseline is fucked up like that until it recovers.

Everything is still tied to biology, that's true, we're only putting words on chemical reactions. It does take a fairly long while to recover, and with a messed up reward system, it feels even longer. 

Posted by: @clenchy

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Though it isn't even just a weed high, it's a turbo-charged sexual experience in someone who was already sensitized to prostate stimulation... so who even knows how that dopamine-spike measures up against the more destructive drugs.

Exactly, it's not the weed, and it's not the Aneros or Super-Os, it's a perfect storm, at least for some people, where they get this insane synergy. I think it would be scary to see how close this comes to certain stronger drugs and their psychological side-effects. I read lots of stories from recovering hard-drugs addicts, also watched hours of interviews, and there are some very disturbing parallels. 

Posted by: @zentai

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I was writing everything down "for science"

lol, relatable. I kept a word doc where I'd write down insights about my stoned sessions. I was thinking maybe if I gained enough information, I could take that back to my sober sessions. Which is a fine idea on paper, but none of what I wrote down helps when I'm lying down to a dud session, with maximum impatience, not knowing how to relax, and having my dopamine all screwed up. I haven't even gone back to read it, because I know it's all written from a different perspective, where being empty minded, accepting, and body-aroused are all free. It provides no road-map to get to its own starting point. Maybe some day.

@clenchy 

Looks like we came to similar conclusions. It does show you how to navigate things at the higher levels, but it's like watching one of these videos where a famous guitarist shows you how to play a solo. I see what he's doing, but it's impossible for me to move my fingers like that. But it's still true that the way to play the solo is to hit all the right notes at the right speed and pressure, and none of the wrong notes at the wrong speed. It can be true and meaningless at the same time, just like carving a masterpiece is simply about removing everything that is not the masterpiece. Which is again true, but does not help anyone.

So yeah, once I get back there to step 15 or whatever, I'll know exactly how to find my way to the next level, but I can only manage from 1 to 10 right now, so this knowledge is not that helpful. I know I need to let go, man this is obvious, but knowing how to let go, or even how to put myself in a place where the possibility of letting go is present, that's another thing entirely. 

Posted by: @zentai

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I know I need to let go, man this is obvious, but knowing how to let go, or even how to put myself in a place where the possibility of letting go is present, that's another thing entirely.

I remember the sober mindset I had before I started smoking weed, it was like I'd go very quiet, almost like I was letting most of my brain go to sleep, while keeping one small part awake. After enough years of practice, I used to be able to slip right into it. But I think most importantly I used to trust the process, and that gave me patience. That what I was doing would definitely work, and I didn't have to troubleshoot, measure, or evaluate anything. Coming back with shot dopamine, and being out of practice made me not able to be that passive. And I was spoiled by not needing to build anything, or be patient at all.

There's something else I got from weed that I never figured out sober, which is feeling more "present in my body". It's a hard thing to even describe. But it's like the rest of the time I'm dissociating from my body and retreating into my head. Which makes some sense for me, since I was always anxious even as a kid, so it might be something I do without realizing because it seems so normal.
I don't know how I would even do that, but at least I know it's one of my missing ingredients I guess.

@clenchy 

Posted by: @clenchy

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There's something else I got from weed that I never figured out sober, which is feeling more "present in my body". It's a hard thing to even describe.

I'm pretty sure I'd be back on track if I could shut my brain down a bit, and focus on what is happening rather than on my mental representation of what is happening. It's like things are going through a filter that removes some bits that are essential to success. 

There was even a period of time where I would snap out of Super-Os because I was so focused on "solving the puzzle" that I would start thinking about new ways to explain the process to others. It's amazing to me how easy it is to lose the orgasm even right in the middle of a super intense session if my mind starts to wander.

Posted by: @zentai

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It's like things are going through a filter that removes some bits that are essential to success.

That actually describes my "body connectedness" thing too. It was like I was able to feel sensations directly, instead of having them routed through some self-appointed observer. There was more presence in it, less delay, yet it was so self-evidently how things should be felt, though it wasn't obvious before.
I achieved this once accidentally in a sober session (after I quit weed), and I was like "Oh, this was missing". Still no idea whether it was something I did, or something I stopped doing. I don't even know where to start. Maybe that level of uninterrupted immediacy is what's needed to fire off a self-sustaining chain of involuntaries.

Posted by: @clenchy

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There was more presence in it, less delay, yet it was so self-evidently how things should be felt, though it wasn't obvious before.

Yeah, I think this also comes down to what almost every human asks himself at one point or another : Am I normal ? If I'm stuck outside the Super-O bubble because of some undiagnosed ADHD, and once in a blue moon I manage to focus for some strange reason, then maybe I need Adderall ? Is it the missing thing ? 

Then again, I did experience Super-Os for well over a decade stone cold sober, so if it's ADHD, did it get worse at some point ? Did THC ruin some fine-tuned mindset I had managed to build over time ? I think it's going to take some effort no matter what, and different people will struggle with different aspects, unless some lucky person has a "perfect mind" for this. 

I think one path is how super high arousal really lowers inhibition and thinking, and this is well documented. And maybe this was easier for me to achieve 20 years ago. Maybe this path is mostly closed right now, and I have to look for an alternate one ? 

Posted by: @zentai

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Did THC ruin some fine-tuned mindset I had managed to build over time ?

I feel like it did for me.
I think part of it is I'm expecting to get straight to orgasm territory, and I'm not used to cultivating the session from scratch. When I was at the top of my sober game, I might get things rolling in 15-20 minutes because I could snap into it, but before that it would be much longer.
It might also have changed how we think about focus. It's like with weed I could just "wish" for sensations, and my focus was a mental game. But before weed, my focus was more physical and animalistic. The goal was to "become body". It seems in my case, weed inverts that, and I am already "body" with my remaining awareness going towards mentally dealing with all the body action.
Not that I've successfully made this switch, I'm just thinking out loud.

Posted by: @zentai

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I think one path is how super high arousal really lowers inhibition and thinking, and this is well documented.

I've always thought the hardest part of being a beginner is lying there with nothing happening, trying to quiet your mind and search for small sensations without getting bored. When the sensations come more easily, it gives you something to focus on. And when the sensations build, trust builds, and the distraction of second-guessing can be allowed to leave. Being plunged back into sober sessions has been a self-doubt filled experience. I think that's why I've spent more time exploring other outlets... maybe I'll forget my expectations.

@titoh Sorry for the thread-hijack. Jump back in at any time. I'd be interested to hear your progress.

@clenchy 

For me there are definitely 2 paths, an arousal-based one, and a relaxation-based one.

If I try to think back about my beginner's experience (and believe me, I kick myself for having zero notes from that period) I think that I could get to the relaxation option early on by using hypnosis as a way to focus and avoid boredom. Then after succeeding, I got confidence and proficiency in navigating the steps, and the prospect of having a session became arousing, and that balanced well with a bit of relaxation, but I needed less focus than when trying to achieve S-Os by fully relaxing and getting into a trance. It still required effort, but a very reasonable amount. 

As life happened and stress from work and increased responsibilities got more present, my success ratio saw a net decrease. I accepted some duds, thinking that you can't always hit a homerun. There were some periods where I just could not do it, but it always came back. 

With cannabis, there was none of this, as it was purely arousal-based right from the start, and I could always get it to work since the drug always had the same effect : it gave me intense arousal, and total focus on the arousal and pleasure. After a while my health was falling off a cliff, but some THC always delivered Super-Os, even with high anxiety and other side effects. So I could at least conclude that "arousal trumps all". 

I don't think we're doing that much of an hijack, after all, this is still about THC and anxious people, and relying on cannabis for Os even when the price to pay becomes pretty steep.

@Zentai Yep, I never had a dud session stoned. What I can't seem to get over though, is that arousal... it was "just there" in some weird way, didn't need any sexy thoughts or fantasies, never had to look at porn, didn't even have to be in the mood. I could be in any kind of crap mood and jump right in, it didn't matter. Then I could just ride orgasms without sexual thoughts, only focusing on pleasure.
Which I suppose makes some sense, that if you're already perfectly aroused, why would you even need to bring in sexual fantasies?

The weirdest one was when I was too drunk & stoned to even insert an aneros, and I just lay there, empty-minded and fogged out... then some 20 minutes later, remarking to myself "What model is this? It's awesome", because a whole a-less thing kicked off that felt indistinguishable from any other night with weed & aneros. I find experiences like that hard to integrate into sober life... like what do I even do with that? I literally did nothing, thought nothing, inserted nothing, and couldn't have done less to have an orgasm if I tried.
Cut to 6 months later in sobriety, two hours into a dud session, and remembering that happened 😐

Posted by: @clenchy

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The weirdest one was when I was too drunk & stoned to even insert an aneros, and I just lay there, empty-minded and fogged out... then some 20 minutes later, remarking to myself "What model is this? It's awesome", because a whole a-less thing kicked off that felt indistinguishable from any other night with weed & aneros. I find experiences like that hard to integrate into sober life...

Absolutely, I had this exact same thing happen more than once. At some point I was scared of using an Aneros and I would only do Aless. What we can integrate is that under the right circumstances, Aless is really the same as using a device. And a lot of my early hypnosis sessions were without a device because I did not own any prostate massager when I started, and I could still get some experiences that were similar to S-Os. Knowing that it's like Tantric training wheels, and actually experiencing it are very different things. 

I agree that coming back from these automatic results, only to end up trying to prod some kind of pleasure out of duds can really ruin things. I relapsed after several months last time because things were beginning to pick up, and my lizard brain whispered to me that if I could do it again sober, then imagine what it would be with a little help from the devil's lettuce. Well f*ck that guy... Then it was back to quitting again. 

Posted by: @zentai

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And a lot of my early hypnosis sessions were without a device because I did not own any prostate massager when I started, and I could still get some experiences that were similar to S-Os.

Did you experience something like a phantom device? Because that's what surprised me the most. Like I had the physical sensation of something rubbing my prostate. Which totally flipped my perception on that relationship. Because if my prostate feels that thumping/rubbing with no device inserted, then I'm thinking that sensation was always the prostate itself, rather than the prostate against the device.

Posted by: @zentai

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I relapsed after several months last time because things were beginning to pick up, and my lizard brain whispered to me that if I could do it again sober, then imagine what it would be with a little help from the devil's lettuce.

Hah yeah, "Imagine how low my tolerance must be by now!".
The important thing is going right back to quitting. I've lapsed a few times, but I don't let it get to me, because I know I'll be right back to months of sobriety, once I wake up the next day all foggy and zombified from that shitty weed sleep I always get.
I prefer being off weed, and the second I get back to super-o's I know I'm done with it for good. I had almost reached that stage already when I was off it a few months, I had a session that was getting so good, I had that thought ... "this is almost as good as my weed sessions". But the consistency wasn't there, and I had a hard time trying to repeat it.
I think that might have been the same session where I felt unusually body-present.

Posted by: @clenchy

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Did you experience something like a phantom device?

Yes, just like you I was asking myself if this was the Eupho or maybe a Peridise, but I had nothing inserted. It's pretty hard to tell what is happening exactly, but I feel like there are some muscles making contact somehow. Or maybe the body makes a connection between anal and PC contractions with the device, and fills in the blanks when no device is present. Having played with a finger, I know that at the moment of orgasm, the muscles can squeeze surprisingly hard, and contact between the PC muscles and prostate is possible. I don't know how universal that is, but I know someone who is very acquainted with scientific literature and who may be able to answer this. Stay tuned ! 

We know from literature on phantom penis in trans men that phantom pleasure can be felt from stroking a strap-on or visualizing a sensate penis where the strap-on is removed. This means that toy-less pleasure could be brain-down, sending arousal to areas stimulated by the actual toy.

Also, just by displacement of energy from aless contractions alone, all nerves in the first couple inches should get some amount of stimulation, including those of the prostate. In this video of pelvic floor contractions, you can see how many structures change position. This movement can massage the prostate without anything inside: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xkXsfeixq0M